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Forums :: Blog World :: HockeyBuzz Hotstove: Top-5 wingers in the Western Conference?
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ToddCordellVAN
Location: Barrie, ON
Joined: 09.04.2013

Aug 7 @ 1:06 PM ET
HockeyBuzz Hotstove: Top-5 wingers in the Western Conference?
BestRapperAlive
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: OEL is one of the greatest players of his generation - James Tanner
Joined: 06.21.2012

Aug 7 @ 1:11 PM ET

this is very exciting
BestRapperAlive
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: OEL is one of the greatest players of his generation - James Tanner
Joined: 06.21.2012

Aug 7 @ 1:13 PM ET

Gaudreau for sure. Guy is amazing and somehow underrated
dsavage30
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Joined: 07.22.2013

Aug 7 @ 1:16 PM ET
How do you guys leave out Miko Rantannen?
BlackhawkDown
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Peterborough, ON
Joined: 08.01.2012

Aug 7 @ 1:24 PM ET
Depends on the criteria you are judging them by. If this article was best 200 ft winger its Mark Stone hands down. If we are judging by points its Patrick Kane, stats say so.
Snowman X
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 07.05.2018

Aug 7 @ 1:38 PM ET
Really? Mark Stone? Really? One guy is taking Mark Stone as the best winger in the West, and the other guy puts him second?

Good Lord.. There are at least 9 other guys I would take before Mark Stone. Maybe more. But these are the names I can think of off the top of my head...

1. Patrick Kane

2. Leon Draisaitl

3. Johnny Hockey

4. Blake Wheeler

5. Vlad Tarasenko

6. Mikko Rantanen

7. Filip Forsberg

8. Logan Couture

9. Jamie Benn

At 10, I would probably start thinking about Mark Stone.. Of course, there's also Matthew Tkachuk, Patrick Laine, Phil Kessel, Timo Meier and Kyle Conner that you could make a case for...

Sean Maloughney
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Edmonton
Joined: 09.26.2010

Aug 7 @ 1:39 PM ET
How do you guys leave out Miko Rantannen?
- dsavage30

On my list I left him as an honourable mention but I debated swapping him out with Blake Wheeler. For me it came down to time, and that Wheeler has remained a top producer for so many years. If you asked who I would rather have on my roster, Rantanen or Wheeler, I would pick Rantanen in a heartbeat.
hawk35
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: NF
Joined: 08.26.2009

Aug 7 @ 1:41 PM ET
Really? Mark Stone? Really? One guy is taking Mark Stone as the best winger in the West, and the other guy puts him second?

Good Lord.. There are at least 9 other guys I would take before Mark Stone. Maybe more. But these are the names I can think of off the top of my head...

1. Patrick Kane

2. Leon Draisaitl

3. Johnny Hockey

4. Blake Wheeler

5. Vlad Tarasenko

6. Mikko Rantanen

7. Filip Forsberg

8. Logan Couture

9. Jamie Benn

At 10, I would probably start thinking about Mark Stone.. Of course, there's also Matthew Tkachuk, Patrick Laine, Phil Kessel, Timo Meier and Kyle Conner that you could make a case for...

- Snowman X


Dunno...but I sense just a tad of "Ottawa Hate" following Stone to the Vegas lineup....????
hawk35
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: NF
Joined: 08.26.2009

Aug 7 @ 1:44 PM ET
How do you guys leave out Miko Rantannen?
- dsavage30



I would have Rantanen....

1. Stone
2. Kane
3. Rantanen
4. Gaudreau
5. Draisaitl (higher if totally winger, plays much center too)
hawk35
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: NF
Joined: 08.26.2009

Aug 7 @ 1:46 PM ET
Gaudreau for sure. Guy is amazing and somehow underrated
- BestRapperAlive


Agree he is fantastic. Don't know about underrated though. Looking like he is in everybody's Top 5...and Top 3 for most.
Snowman X
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 07.05.2018

Aug 7 @ 2:16 PM ET
Dunno...but I sense just a tad of "Ottawa Hate" following Stone to the Vegas lineup....????
- hawk35


There's no Ottawa hate. I just can't really justify ranking him ahead of any of the names I listed.

-Kane has broken 100 points twice and is a career 1.039 points per game.

-Leon Draisaitl just put up 50 goals and 105 points for the worst team in hockey.

-Johnny Gaudreau has put up back to back seasons with over a point per game and came one point shy of breaking 100 points last season.

-Blake Wheeler is coming off of back to back 91 point seasons and might be one of the leagues most underrated players.

-Vlad Tarasenko hasn't had a season below 30 goals in the last half-decade.

-Mikko Rantanen has not had a season under 20 goals since entering the NHL, is coming off of back to back 80+ point seasons and had a shot at hitting 40 goals last year if he didn't miss time. This kid is just warming up.

-Filip Forsberg has not had a season in the NHL since entering full time where he has put up less than 25 goals. If not for injuries in the past 2 seasons, he would be a 4x consecutive 30 goal scorer.

-Logan Couture is a guy who, if injuries hadn't plagued him throughout his career, would have never posted less than 60 points in a season in the NHL since entering the league full time. He's so consistently good, it's sick.

-Jamie Benn had a down year last year, but before that, he was at or nearly at a point per game in his previous 8 seasons.

Mark Stone has only reached 30 goals once in his career (and he had to be dealt to Vegas to do it) and he is not a strong skater, or stick handler. He has a good shot, but not elite like some of the above-noted talent. I've never been a big fan.
Newgod77
Boston Bruins
Location: IL
Joined: 05.10.2015

Aug 7 @ 2:26 PM ET
Cordell giving tanner a run for his money.
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Aug 7 @ 2:29 PM ET
Really? Mark Stone? Really? One guy is taking Mark Stone as the best winger in the West, and the other guy puts him second?

Good Lord.. There are at least 9 other guys I would take before Mark Stone. Maybe more. But these are the names I can think of off the top of my head...

1. Patrick Kane

2. Leon Draisaitl

3. Johnny Hockey

4. Blake Wheeler

5. Vlad Tarasenko

6. Mikko Rantanen

7. Filip Forsberg

8. Logan Couture

9. Jamie Benn

At 10, I would probably start thinking about Mark Stone.. Of course, there's also Matthew Tkachuk, Patrick Laine, Phil Kessel, Timo Meier and Kyle Conner that you could make a case for...

- Snowman X

If you look at the numbers beyond the surface, you would know how special Stone is. To show his impact, here are his numbers from the last 3 years in comparison to McDavid:

STAT: Stone's 16/17/18 #s ___ McDavid's 16/17/18 #s

P/60: 2.7/3.1/2.19 ___ 2.82/3.17/2.87
GF%: 56.1/53.4/57.6 ___ 50.7/57.0/62.1
HDGF%: 58.2/55.0/56.0 ___ 47.7(!)/56.8/63.0
RelSCF/60: +10.4/+6.2/4.5 ___ +8/+9.1/8.6
RelSCA/60: -4.4/-1.4/-1.4 ___ +4.7/+3.4/+1.5 (a negative # is good)
RelSCF%: +13.4/+7.1/5.9 ___ +3.6/+4.8/+6.4
RelGF%: +16.9/+14.9/+10.6 ___ +9.9/+15.4/+13.2
RelHDGF%: +15.4/+13.8/+11.3 ___ +6.4/+16.4/+18.7

*excluded the Vegas numbers for the sake of consistency

He barely falls behind in 5-on-5 per 60 scoring, exceeds Connor in team relative rates on similarly bad teams. Where you can see a real difference is in the scoring chance numbers where he keeps within reach of Connor in the for but blows him outta the water in the numbers against. As for the fairness of the comparison, both played top competition and each had a year on a successful team included in this analysis and played the other two years on awful teams.

My point isn't to sit here and say he's as good as or better than McDavid. However, to opine that he's not worthy of a top-5 spot among the WC wingers (hell, a case could be made for top-5 winger in the league) is an opinion I can't help but challenge.
dunner84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Victoria, BC
Joined: 12.08.2017

Aug 7 @ 2:52 PM ET
Really? Mark Stone? Really? One guy is taking Mark Stone as the best winger in the West, and the other guy puts him second?

Good Lord.. There are at least 9 other guys I would take before Mark Stone. Maybe more. But these are the names I can think of off the top of my head...

1. Patrick Kane

2. Leon Draisaitl

3. Johnny Hockey

4. Blake Wheeler

5. Vlad Tarasenko

6. Mikko Rantanen

7. Filip Forsberg

8. Logan Couture

9. Jamie Benn

At 10, I would probably start thinking about Mark Stone.. Of course, there's also Matthew Tkachuk, Patrick Laine, Phil Kessel, Timo Meier and Kyle Conner that you could make a case for...


I would take Mark Stone over every single one of those guys... He plays a very complete game... Fantasy hockey? maybe not.. But for real life hockey, I would want him on my side

If I could swap him for Nylander, I would in a heart beat...
jonmeddy
St Louis Blues
Location: St Louis, MO
Joined: 07.18.2018

Aug 7 @ 2:56 PM ET
My point isn't to sit here and say he's as good as or better than McDavid. However, to opine that he's not worthy of a top-5 spot among the WC wingers (hell, a case could be made for top-5 winger in the league) is an opinion I can't help but challenge.
I'm not going to question the talent he has shown in the Eastern conference but I find it hard to believe that he would be regarded so highly over players who have been playing in the west for so many years. Such as Benn, Couture, Tarasenko and for a smaller sample size Rantanen.
kaptaan
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Turning a new Leaf, CA
Joined: 09.29.2010

Aug 7 @ 3:01 PM ET
Phil should be on the list...
Snowman X
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 07.05.2018

Aug 7 @ 3:58 PM ET
I'm not going to question the talent he has shown in the Eastern conference but I find it hard to believe that he would be regarded so highly over players who have been playing in the west for so many years. Such as Benn, Couture, Tarasenko and for a smaller sample size Rantanen.
- jonmeddy


I'm really glad someone else has some sense.
Snowman X
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 07.05.2018

Aug 7 @ 4:00 PM ET
If you look at the numbers beyond the surface, you would know how special Stone is. To show his impact, here are his numbers from the last 3 years in comparison to McDavid:

STAT: Stone's 16/17/18 #s ___ McDavid's 16/17/18 #s

P/60: 2.7/3.1/2.19 ___ 2.82/3.17/2.87
GF%: 56.1/53.4/57.6 ___ 50.7/57.0/62.1
HDGF%: 58.2/55.0/56.0 ___ 47.7(!)/56.8/63.0
RelSCF/60: +10.4/+6.2/4.5 ___ +8/+9.1/8.6
RelSCA/60: -4.4/-1.4/-1.4 ___ +4.7/+3.4/+1.5 (a negative # is good)
RelSCF%: +13.4/+7.1/5.9 ___ +3.6/+4.8/+6.4
RelGF%: +16.9/+14.9/+10.6 ___ +9.9/+15.4/+13.2
RelHDGF%: +15.4/+13.8/+11.3 ___ +6.4/+16.4/+18.7

*excluded the Vegas numbers for the sake of consistency

He barely falls behind in 5-on-5 per 60 scoring, exceeds Connor in team relative rates on similarly bad teams. Where you can see a real difference is in the scoring chance numbers where he keeps within reach of Connor in the for but blows him outta the water in the numbers against. As for the fairness of the comparison, both played top competition and each had a year on a successful team included in this analysis and played the other two years on awful teams.

My point isn't to sit here and say he's as good as or better than McDavid. However, to opine that he's not worthy of a top-5 spot among the WC wingers (hell, a case could be made for top-5 winger in the league) is an opinion I can't help but challenge.

- MaximumBone


You almost had me.. I almost considered Stone right behind Rantanen at 7.. but then you had to go and say he could be considered a top 5 winger League-wide. That's so far beyond nonsensical. As the league continues to get younger and faster, you're going to see the holes in Stone's game. Skating is paramount in the modern NHL. Stone is a pretty weak skater.
RonPielep
Location: "Welcome to HockeyBuzz. Come for the rumors. Stay for the idiots." - Feds91Stammer
Joined: 08.21.2014

Aug 7 @ 4:29 PM ET
Cordell giving tanner a run for his money.
- Newgod77


Cordell has really fallen off a cliff ever since the Flames acquired Lucic and he chose to gush about how strong Lucic was defensively.

It’s pretty much been downhill since then. Kinda sad seeing him compared to hockeybuzz’ resident clown (Tanner) at this point because he used to be fairly consistent.

Also it’s getting pretty tiring reading bloggers blunder their way through statistics with distinct arrogance and perceived superiority when they couldn’t even tell you what an expectation is.
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Aug 7 @ 4:30 PM ET
I'm not going to question the talent he has shown in the Eastern conference but I find it hard to believe that he would be regarded so highly over players who have been playing in the west for so many years. Such as Benn, Couture, Tarasenko and for a smaller sample size Rantanen.
- jonmeddy

Couture has played C in every game I've seen him.

I also don't think the East Vs. West difference means all that much. It's not like the West is a harder conference; a different style? For sure. But not one I'd define as more difficult. Whether he's doing it in the higher flying Eastern conference or the tougher, grindier West, Stone is outscoring the opponents best players by a healthy margin. We'll have to wait and see if he can do the same through a whole year in Vegas.
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Aug 7 @ 4:31 PM ET
You almost had me.. I almost considered Stone right behind Rantanen at 7.. but then you had to go and say he could be considered a top 5 winger League-wide. That's so far beyond nonsensical. As the league continues to get younger and faster, you're going to see the holes in Stone's game. Skating is paramount in the modern NHL. Stone is a pretty weak skater.
- Snowman X

I gave numbers showing how his team-relative impact on results is comparable to McDavid- who I think we can agree is at worst a top-2 PLAYER in the league. If that doesn't earn him some major points, I don't know what will. Skating has been gaining importance throughout his career and his best years have just so happened to come in conjunction with the transition to a faster and more offensive game. Evidence shows he's adapted brilliantly to the new, faster NHL despite his skating issues.

I said he can fairly be put in the conversation for top-5 in the league, not that he's there. There are about 15 players (7 or 8 per conference) you could "fairly" place in the conversation for top-5 winger in the league. How about I break down my list of top wingers and we can see the specifics on where you disagree?

1.) Kucherov (hard to argue with the raw numbers)
2.) Ovechkin (consistently scoring 50 goals gets you this high)
3.) Kane (tough to contest even if he plays softER minutes)
-------------------- Here is where it gets more ambiguous
Hall (elite player driver but health is an issue)
Marchand (key cog to a dominant line, but how much is the line?)
Gaudreau (high end offense, but isn't goal share pace-setting)
Rantanen (see Marchand)
Stone (elite two-way game, comparable results to McDavid; track record?)
Benn (elite two-way force, but there's some red flags)
Giroux (dominant since shift to the wing)
Wheeler (huge body, elite skating, great production, solid defense)
Marner (might be on the low end of this conversation now, getting closer)
Pastrnak (see Marchand)
Panarin (consistently dominant)
Draisaitl (if you include him, he does it all; but how much is McDavid?)

That's 12 names there alone that I think are within spitting distance of one another. I probably missed a couple, too! Each can have a case made for their inclusion among the best: for some their case is godly raw numbers, for others the case is their impact despite poor supporting casts and for other it's their contribution to a hyper-dominant line. Almost all have a valid argument that could place them among the top-5; it depends largely on your criteria.
RonPielep
Location: "Welcome to HockeyBuzz. Come for the rumors. Stay for the idiots." - Feds91Stammer
Joined: 08.21.2014

Aug 7 @ 4:42 PM ET
If you look at the numbers beyond the surface, you would know how special Stone is. To show his impact, here are his numbers from the last 3 years in comparison to McDavid:

STAT: Stone's 16/17/18 #s ___ McDavid's 16/17/18 #s

P/60: 2.7/3.1/2.19 ___ 2.82/3.17/2.87
GF%: 56.1/53.4/57.6 ___ 50.7/57.0/62.1
HDGF%: 58.2/55.0/56.0 ___ 47.7(!)/56.8/63.0
RelSCF/60: +10.4/+6.2/4.5 ___ +8/+9.1/8.6
RelSCA/60: -4.4/-1.4/-1.4 ___ +4.7/+3.4/+1.5 (a negative # is good)
RelSCF%: +13.4/+7.1/5.9 ___ +3.6/+4.8/+6.4
RelGF%: +16.9/+14.9/+10.6 ___ +9.9/+15.4/+13.2
RelHDGF%: +15.4/+13.8/+11.3 ___ +6.4/+16.4/+18.7

*excluded the Vegas numbers for the sake of consistency

He barely falls behind in 5-on-5 per 60 scoring, exceeds Connor in team relative rates on similarly bad teams. Where you can see a real difference is in the scoring chance numbers where he keeps within reach of Connor in the for but blows him outta the water in the numbers against. As for the fairness of the comparison, both played top competition and each had a year on a successful team included in this analysis and played the other two years on awful teams.

My point isn't to sit here and say he's as good as or better than McDavid. However, to opine that he's not worthy of a top-5 spot among the WC wingers (hell, a case could be made for top-5 winger in the league) is an opinion I can't help but challenge.

- MaximumBone


It makes no sense to use GF% as a metric to compare players on entirely different teams. And no, making a hand-wavy footnote about being similarly bad teams doesn’t make it any better.

Contrary to some internet BS floating around on fine sources such as Twitter, using team relative statistics to compare players across different teams actually only increases your bias.
Stan_Bowman
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.27.2017

Aug 7 @ 4:43 PM ET
Patrick Kane, third in NHL scoring last year, 89 pts or more 3 out of last 4 years, 2nd 106+ pt year out of last 4

Can't crack Cordell's top 3 winger list in the WESTERN CONFERENCE

Cordell wins dunce of the week. Breaking Tanner's 238 week streak.

Rest easy Tanner, at least until Monday where you can reclaim your crown

Lauds Johnny Gaudreau's offensive abilities, gets to kane and knocks his defensive play. Just LOL, as if Gaudreau does ANYTHING defensively
SimpleJack
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago , IL
Joined: 05.23.2013

Aug 7 @ 4:45 PM ET
Anyone disputing Kane at #1 is smoking crack.

This one isn’t even close. It’s 88 by a mile.
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Aug 7 @ 4:55 PM ET
It makes no sense to use GF% as a metric to compare players on entirely different teams. And no, making a hand-wavy footnote about being similarly bad teams doesn’t make it any better.

Contrary to some internet BS floating around on fine sources such as Twitter, using team relative statistics to compare players across different teams actually only increases your bias.

- RonPielep

Please elaborate on your point here- particularly your qualms with team-relative statistics.

The point of a team-relative GF comparison is to measure overall goal share impact compared to the rest of their team. There are a number of factors that ought to be considered in making a direct comparison (quality of linemates, defensive pairings, goalies and overall quality of team), but given the two players I picked, most of those factors are at least somewhat controlled for. Were I comparing Stone to Kucherov, then I could see your point.

Also, it's not like I only offered the GF% as the comparison. Included are a number of other statistics relevant to process and results that show Stone having a similarly huge impact.
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