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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Paul Holmgren Steps Aside as Flyers President: An Analysis
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KINGKENZO
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: OMAR COMIN'..Head or Gut?.....Watching regular white people
Joined: 01.10.2008

Jul 12 @ 8:26 PM ET
a nice, fair deal

Good job, Fletch........bout time
Doc_Sarcasm
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Should of studied Geometry
Joined: 04.28.2013

Jul 12 @ 8:30 PM ET
Guess I need to back read. Can't see why anyone would hate it.
- FlyerFan16



Its worth the backread just for the pair of jabs that Bill got in on PLind.
wcorvette
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Joined: 10.03.2010

Jul 12 @ 8:33 PM ET
Its worth the backread just for the pair of jabs that Bill got in on PLind.
- Doc_Sarcasm



True
NC Flyers Fan
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.19.2018

Jul 12 @ 8:46 PM ET
Its worth the backread just for the pair of jabs that Bill got in on PLind.
- Doc_Sarcasm


So is that name Bill used an old username of Plindy’s or what?
NC Flyers Fan
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.19.2018

Jul 12 @ 8:49 PM ET
a nice, fair deal

Good job, Fletch........bout time

- KINGKENZO


Laughton is solid. That will be a really good deal.
peesinwind
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: columbia, MD
Joined: 06.27.2015

Jul 12 @ 9:03 PM ET
Laughing at all the stress about the cap. The Flyers are not up against the cap. They will get Provy and TK signed. They will fill out the line up and manage the cap fine.

I also have a feeling that we will be talking about this team as a competitor nearing playoffs next year. The coaching staff is the biggest upgrade in my opinion. With the upgraded D and the addition of Hayes this team is looking pretty deep.

Finishing up with Hart in goal.

This team is good and to have a coaching staff to lead the way is huge.

Like what Fletcher is doing. Like what Hexy did to put the team in a position to where they could make these moves.

The only big sexy move was the coach hiring but the upgrades around these talented kids is good.
Doc_Sarcasm
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Should of studied Geometry
Joined: 04.28.2013

Jul 12 @ 9:06 PM ET
So is that name Bill used an old username of Plindy’s or what?
- NC Flyers Fan



No.. a ways back Bill pointed out (i'm paraphrasing here) that it was odd that our favorite member of Team Negative would choose Pelle Lindbergh as inspiration for his HB handle, being that Pelle was always a happy go lucky guy, fun to be around and an all around good guy. Bill then suggested that perhaps PBrendl55 would have been a better choice since Brendl was known for being surly, combative and not particularly pleasant to be around.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 12 @ 9:09 PM ET
Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Both separate deals or both linked then you open the door of proving someone else’s thoughts.
- peesinwind


Simply not the case. If you buyout a player to create cap space to sign a player, those moves are obviously linked. There is no move that changes that trading for Braun cost the team a 2nd and a 3rd. If they had made another deal and got a 3rd, would that mean they got Braun for nothing?
NC Flyers Fan
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.19.2018

Jul 12 @ 9:09 PM ET
No.. a ways back Bill pointed out (i'm paraphrasing here) that it was odd that our favorite member of Team Negative would choose Pelle Lindbergh as inspiration for his HB handle, being that Pelle was always a happy go lucky guy, fun to be around and an all around good guy. Bill then suggested that perhaps PBrendl55 would have been a better choice since Brendl was known for being surly, combative and not particularly pleasant to be around.
- Doc_Sarcasm


Nice! Thanks. I must’ve missed that.
peesinwind
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: columbia, MD
Joined: 06.27.2015

Jul 12 @ 9:14 PM ET
Simply not the case. If you buyout a player to create cap space to sign a player, those moves are obviously linked. There is no move that changes that trading for Braun cost the team a 2nd and a 3rd. If they had made another deal and got a 3rd, would that mean they got Braun for nothing?
- MJL


Slippery slope my friend. They weren't up against the cap when they bought him out. They didn’t need the space.
Usually you are the one making this debate. Surprised to see you making that claim. Don’t you think it isn’t good to assume when Fletcher never made claim.
Like I said. Just not your common reasoning from most of my observations of your making sense of things.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 12 @ 9:21 PM ET
Slippery slope my friend. They weren't up against the cap when they bought him out. They didn’t need the space.
Usually you are the one making this debate. Surprised to see you making that claim. Don’t you think it isn’t good to assume when Fletcher never made claim.
Like I said. Just not your common reasoning from most of my observations of your making sense of things.

- peesinwind


You have to plan for the future to be cap compliant coming out of camp. There is a buyout window where they have to put the player on waivers. If you understand the cap and the CBA, it obvious. It's not at all a slippery slope. MacDonald was bought out for the purpose of trading for Braun and making cap space for him. You're not making a good argument here.
peesinwind
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: columbia, MD
Joined: 06.27.2015

Jul 12 @ 9:31 PM ET
You have to plan for the future to be cap compliant coming out of camp. There is a buyout window where they have to put the player on waivers. If you understand the cap and the CBA, it obvious. It's not at all a slippery slope. MacDonald was bought out for the purpose of trading for Braun and making cap space for him. You're not making a good argument here.
- MJL


If that is the train of thought then management of assists could be planned out in the same manner. Braun was bought for a 2nd and a 3rd with the knowledge that they were confident enough that they were going to be able to trade back and recoup a 2nd pick.

No way for them to know that Hayes was coming in at that price and they still don’t know where Provy will come in. I understand the buy out time line. Just think it was of a bigger picture and not the one trade. Think he knew of all the things he wanted to accomplish. Went in with a plan. And then managed the plan. That trade affected the buyout but I couldn’t say for sure that it was the sole reason. Think that argument is weak.

I think they all need to be look at on their own merit or looked at as one well constructed plan unless it is confessed otherwise.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 12 @ 9:42 PM ET
If that is the train of thought then management of assists could be planned out in the same manner. Braun was bought for a 2nd and a 3rd with the knowledge that they were confident enough that they were going to be able to trade back and recoup a 2nd pick.


- peesinwind


Trades on the draft floor happen spontaneously in real time as players rise and fall in the draft and teams target players at certain spots. There is no way the Flyers could know or predict ahead of time that they would be able to make a trade to acquire a 2nd round pick at the draft. Conversations with San Jose for Braun were likely happening over a period of time well before the draft. They also knew that the buyout window open to them if they chose to use it. None of the latter involved a crystal ball and predicting the future. They were buying out MacDonald and were going to try and acquire a veteran defenseman. If they didn't get Braun, they would have likely targeted a different player with the cap space they saved with the buyout.

Still misses the point that any separate deal does not change that the cost of acquiring Braun was a 2nd and a 3rd.


No way for them to know that Hayes was coming in at that price and they still don’t know where Provy will come in. I understand the buy out time line. Just think it was of a bigger picture and not the one trade. Think he knew of all the things he wanted to accomplish. Went in with a plan. And then managed the plan. That trade affected the buyout but I couldn’t say for sure that it was the sole reason. Think that argument is weak.

I think they all need to be look at on their own merit or looked at as one well constructed plan unless it is confessed otherwise.

- peesinwind


They certainly knew what they were willing to pay Hayes in their budget. Same with Provorov and Konecny. You have it backwards. The trade didn't affect the buyout. The buyout was so they could make the trade and fit the player going into the season. It was calculated. As sure as the sun rises. It's a strong and obvious argument. Buyout a defenseman, create cap space, acquire a different defenseman.
peesinwind
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: columbia, MD
Joined: 06.27.2015

Jul 12 @ 10:18 PM ET
Trades on the draft floor happen spontaneously in real time as players rise and fall in the draft and teams target players at certain spots. There is no way the Flyers could know or predict ahead of time that they would be able to make a trade to acquire a 2nd round pick at the draft. Conversations with San Jose for Braun were likely happening over a period of time well before the draft. They also knew that the buyout window open to them if they chose to use it. None of the latter involved a crystal ball and predicting the future. They were buying out MacDonald and were going to try and acquire a veteran defenseman. If they didn't get Braun, they would have likely targeted a different player with the cap space they saved with the buyout.

Still misses the point that any separate deal does not change that the cost of acquiring Braun was a 2nd and a 3rd.



They certainly knew what they were willing to pay Hayes in their budget. Same with Provorov and Konecny. You have it backwards. The trade didn't affect the buyout. The buyout was so they could make the trade and fit the player going into the season. It was calculated. As sure as the sun rises. It's a strong and obvious argument. Buyout a defenseman, create cap space, acquire a different defenseman.

- MJL


Hummmm? It doesn’t wash for me. Thanks for your well thought out debate MJL. I can agree with the fact that it affected Fletcher’s team to pull the trigger on the the buy out for sure.
sILKAsSINASALO
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.20.2018

Jul 12 @ 10:21 PM ET
I think it's a solid deal. I was thinking it would be around 2.8M.
- MJL

I was with you in the 2.75 or 2.8 ballpark. Every little bit helps right now. Any details on incentives and bonus structure for his contract?
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 12 @ 10:22 PM ET
Hummmm? It doesn’t wash for me. Thanks for your well thought out debate MJL. I can agree with the fact that it affected Fletcher’s team to pull the trigger on the the buy out for sure.
- peesinwind


Doesn't wash? Flyers buyout MacDonald on June 15th. Trade for Braun on June 18th. The buyout of MacDonald creates 3.8M of cap space for the team. Braun's cap hit is 3.8M. It's painfully obvious why they bought out MacDonald.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 12 @ 10:24 PM ET
I was with you in the 2.75 or 2.8 ballpark. Every little bit helps right now. Any details on incentives and bonus structure for his contract?
- sILKAsSINASALO


There are none. The only players that are eligible for incentives (performance bonuses) are players on entry level deals or 35+ deals. Signing bonus money is just salary paid up front or on a certain date and doesn't effect the cap. According to Cap freindly, no signing bonus money.
jduran10
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Regina, SK
Joined: 07.26.2013

Jul 12 @ 11:09 PM ET
Homer
In a non cap world I want him as my GM
In a cap world I want him as the GM of any other team please
wcorvette
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Joined: 10.03.2010

Jul 13 @ 7:27 AM ET
Doesn't wash? Flyers buyout MacDonald on June 15th. Trade for Braun on June 18th. The buyout of MacDonald creates 3.8M of cap space for the team. Braun's cap hit is 3.8M. It's painfully obvious why they bought out MacDonald.
- MJL



That is definitely linked. I also believe it was part of the total plan.

Their project plan coming into the offseason had 2 vet D in it. They had a 1C in it. They also knew who their guy was in the draft, they probably knew they could move back in the first round.

Part of the project plan would have been to evaluate all the options and plan adjustments if what they thought was going to happen, didn't. For example, they probably combed over the better teams that were up against the cap, looked for a D they liked with a contract they liked. I am sure Braun was not the only target but was the main target. Same thing in the draft, I think they were pretty certain their guy would be there and be there after #11. They had a plan for all contingencies. A good project team will.

From this, I would say buying out AMAC was a decision made prior to actually trading for Braun. It was most likely decided in the project plan, when they looked at the 2C, the RFA's and the 2 vet D they wanted. So I think you are both right, it was more than just Braun but happen pretty much when Braun happened. The plan came together as they thought it would.
daryl stanley
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 02.12.2019

Jul 13 @ 7:28 AM ET
Doesn't wash? Flyers buyout MacDonald on June 15th. Trade for Braun on June 18th. The buyout of MacDonald creates 3.8M of cap space for the team. Braun's cap hit is 3.8M. It's painfully obvious why they bought out MacDonald.
- MJL

Yes it is because he sucks
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jul 13 @ 8:01 AM ET
That is definitely linked. I also believe it was part of the total plan.

Their project plan coming into the offseason had 2 vet D in it. They had a 1C in it. They also knew who their guy was in the draft, they probably knew they could move back in the first round.

Part of the project plan would have been to evaluate all the options and plan adjustments if what they thought was going to happen, didn't. For example, they probably combed over the better teams that were up against the cap, looked for a D they liked with a contract they liked. I am sure Braun was not the only target but was the main target. Same thing in the draft, I think they were pretty certain their guy would be there and be there after #11. They had a plan for all contingencies. A good project team will.

From this, I would say buying out AMAC was a decision made prior to actually trading for Braun. It was most likely decided in the project plan, when they looked at the 2C, the RFA's and the 2 vet D they wanted. So I think you are both right, it was more than just Braun but happen pretty much when Braun happened. The plan came together as they thought it would.

- wcorvette


The bought out MacDonald before trading for Braun. As I said previously, if the deal for Braun had fallen through, they would've targeted another veteran player. I don't think you can ever be pretty certain of what's going to happen in the draft. It's educated guesses. The only thing you can be certain of in the draft is where you rank the players.
sILKAsSINASALO
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.20.2018

Jul 13 @ 8:06 AM ET
There are none. The only players that are eligible for incentives (performance bonuses) are players on entry level deals or 35+ deals. Signing bonus money is just salary paid up front or on a certain date and doesn't effect the cap. According to Cap freindly, no signing bonus money.
- MJL

I wasnt quite sure how that all works. You really seem to know the CBA and bonus structure better than I do so thank you for specifying that for me
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