Ryan Wilson: Penguins breezing towards favorable first round matchup Penguins breezing towards favorable first round matchup

Penis.

Alexander Ovechkin scored his 50th (and 51st) goal of the year over the weekend which makes it eight times he’s accomplished this feat. For me it is between him and Mario Lemieux for best goal scorer of all-time and the trajectory Ovechkin is on will likely lead him to being my clear cut answer. The only other players that have more 50 goals seasons are Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy with nine each. The big difference for me is that Alexander Ovechkin actually had to score on real goalies. Early 80’s Youtube highlights are cringy to watch. The goaltending and defense was remarkably pathetic.
- Ryan_Wilson

The late 80's and early 90's weren't better. In fact, the 92/93 season saw the most 50-goal scorers and most 100-point scorers in NHL history.

So Gretzky's goals don't matter, Bossy's goals don't matter, Hull's goals don't matter, Bure's goals don't matter, but Mario's do??? Why him specifically (if anything, I'd say Hull was 2nd best pure goal scorer).

Do we count this as a shot at JJ?

Penis.
- j.boyd919

PENIS

The non-homer reason I give the edge to Mario is while Ovie has the best shot of all time, Mario scored the type of goals nobody else could score. Mario created more by himself.

Do we count this as a shot at JJ?
- Guile

On a scale of 1 to RW, I'd say this was a 2.

The non-homer reason I give the edge to Mario is while Ovie has the best shot of all time, Mario scored the type of goals nobody else could score. Mario created more by himself.
- Rinosaur

If you except Bobby Orr, Mario is probably the most naturally talented player of all time (Gretzky was the best thinker of all-time)/ But as a pure goal scorer, Brett Hull was better. Yes, Mario may have been able to create more for himself than anyone (besides Orr) but that's not what I use as the measuring stick.

And again, Ryan used "the early 80s" to discredit Gretzky and Bossy, while not mentioning that the late 80s and early 90s were just as bad, if not worse, defensively and goaltending-wise.

I've been warming to advanced stats over the last season and I really do see their usefulness. My issues still, and this is where guys like Tanner and RW come in, is that people choose which ones to use to suit their argument.

1) Yes, Carolina owned shot attempts and shots, but they are also like #1 in the league with that and outshoot most teams on average.

2) Yes, the Pens at ES could have been better defensively, but they weren't bad despite the the 3rd pair being a sieve.

The type of advanced stats, at least teams stats, is ones that focus on the quality of play, not so much the quantity. While the Canes owned shots and shot attempts, the Pens won the quality department 10-8 in terms have high-danger chances.

So out of all those shots and attempts, the Canes only registered 8 truly good chances. The Pens registered 10 on much lower volume which tells you two things:

1) They're making more of their chances.
2) They do need to get more pucks on net.

My biggest issue with the Pens right now is they are not creating enough mayhem and havoc right in front of goalies. I love the pretty plays as much as anyone else, but when you're facing a goalie who seems to be stopping everything you need start playing some ugly hockey.

Get pucks on nets, create havoc in front of the goalie and get those John LeClair goals. The Pens didn't do that nearly enough against Nashville. Rinne had it easy that night; he saw most everything.

Sid's line has cooled off. He's still creating a lot. No one is finishing right now. I'd like to see Canner move up again. He was invisible last night. Rusty wasn't exactly killing it either. Great to see Horny pot one.

If you except Bobby Orr, Mario is probably the most naturally talented player of all time (Gretzky was the best thinker of all-time)/ But as a pure goal scorer, Brett Hull was better. Yes, Mario may have been able to create more for himself than anyone (besides Orr) but that's not what I use as the measuring stick.

And again, Ryan used "the early 80s" to discredit Gretzky and Bossy, while not mentioning that the late 80s and early 90s were just as bad, if not worse, defensively and goaltending-wise.
- jmatchett383

I think Mario is right up there with Wayne as far as hockey IQ. Mario saw the game five seconds ahead of everyone else and created things for other players that maybe only him and Wayne could ever have done.

The thing about Ovie is his shot was so good him simply shooting created a chance that wasn't there and I don't want to take that away from him, but the things Mario did leading up to the goals he scored maybe only one or two other people could have done.

I also thing, just based on highlights I've seen, that Orr doesn't get enough mention and should be right up there in general with Mario and Wayne. He was an innovative player.

Sid's line has cooled off. He's still creating a lot. No one is finishing right now. I'd like to see Canner move up again. He was invisible last night. Rusty wasn't exactly killing it either. Great to see Horny pot one.
- Thorny87

It's just time. Things come in waves. Sometimes you need to let lines just run their course and they come back. That line will be fine. I do like Rust with Geno though, so it will be interesting to see how they tinker with things when everyone is healthy.

I've been warming to advanced stats over the last season and I really do see their usefulness. My issues still, and this is where guys like Tanner and RW come in, is that people choose which ones to use to suit their argument.

1) Yes, Carolina owned shot attempts and shots, but they are also like #1 in the league with that and outshoot most teams on average.

2) Yes, the Pens at ES could have been better defensively, but they weren't bad despite the the 3rd pair being a sieve.

The type of advanced stats, at least teams stats, is ones that focus on the quality of play, not so much the quantity. While the Canes owned shots and shot attempts, the Pens won the quality department 10-8 in terms have high-danger chances.

So out of all those shots and attempts, the Canes only registered 8 truly good chances. The Pens registered 10 on much lower volume which tells you two things:

1) They're making more of their chances.
2) They do need to get more pucks on net.

My biggest issue with the Pens right now is they are not creating enough mayhem and havoc right in front of goalies. I love the pretty plays as much as anyone else, but when you're facing a goalie who seems to be stopping everything you need start playing some ugly hockey.

Get pucks on nets, create havoc in front of the goalie and get those John LeClair goals. The Pens didn't do that nearly enough against Nashville. Rinne had it easy that night; he saw most everything.
- Rinosaur

Score effects too. Pens were up 2-0, 3-0... it happens almost every game where the team losing out shoots the team winning due to defensemen jumping into the play, playing a little looser, throwing more rubber at the net, etc. and winning teams tend to be more conservative.

Score effects too. Pens were up 2-0, 3-0... it happens almost every game where the team losing out shoots the team winning due to defensemen jumping into the play, playing a little looser, throwing more rubber at the net, etc. and winning teams tend to be more conservative.
- j.boyd919

Exactly. I thought the Pens played a solid game. Could they have done certain things better? Sure, but overall the habits we've seen in the past of letting their foot off the break isn't happening as much. I'm fine with a conservative game with a lead, just not going night night and letting teams back in.

A big part of that is how the canes have decided to try and create offense of late...

Lots of flinging the puck from everywhere and crashing the net.

It only works if they can get to rebounds, and frankly they don't have enough guys that can get into the paint to get rebounds like that to make it work.

Also the Ferland-Wallmark-Martinook line sucks. It worked with Svechnikov there instead of Ferland, but it's pretty clear the gap in ability between Svechnikov and Ferland is enormous.

I think Mario is right up there with Wayne as far as hockey IQ. Mario saw the game five seconds ahead of everyone else and created things for other players that maybe only him and Wayne could ever have done.

The thing about Ovie is his shot was so good him simply shooting created a chance that wasn't there and I don't want to take that away from him, but the things Mario did leading up to the goals he scored maybe only one or two other people could have done.

I also thing, just based on highlights I've seen, that Orr doesn't get enough mention and should be right up there in general with Mario and Wayne. He was an innovative player.
- Rinosaur

Having never seen anyone of them live in their prime (or Orr at all), Orr was probably the best player of all time. The way he controlled a game in all 3 zones was amazing.

I say Gretzky was the smartest because he knew how to use his team the best. He didn't have to dangle through 4 players because he knew that if he threw the puck to a certain place, his team would score a goal 3 seconds later. Not saying Mario relied on pure brute strength (which he could), because he was also a great playmaker...but Gretzky would actually use the reflections in the glass to see who was behind him...that's a pretty damn innovative thing to do. Also, no one else had ever curled at the blue line or used the back of the net, something that seems like common sense today.

Now, again, based on pure God-given physical ability, Mario is #1, even over Orr. Lemieux and Gretzky can be #2/#3, it depends on your bias, because you can make a case for both (the Lidstrom quote is void because of when he played). So this takes nothing away from Mario at all.

But again, the question was about best goal scorer, not the best player at using his physical tools to be able to score goals. If that's the case, why not include Pavel Bure, who nobody could catch once he got the puck?

A big part of that is how the canes have decided to try and create offense of late...

Lots of flinging the puck from everywhere and crashing the net.

It only works if they can get to rebounds, and frankly they don't have enough guys that can get into the paint to get rebounds like that to make it work.

Also the Ferland-Wallmark-Martinook line sucks. It worked with Svechnikov there instead of Ferland, but it's pretty clear the gap in ability between Svechnikov and Ferland is enormous.
- BINGO!

That’s been their go to strategy all season though hasn’t it? Shot volume all game? I feel like they pepper goalies (albeit like you said, maybe from some low danger areas but still put pucks on net.)

That’s been their go to strategy all season though hasn’t it? Shot volume all game? I feel like they pepper goalies (albeit like you said, maybe from some low danger areas but still put pucks on net.)
- j.boyd919

Nah. Earlier in the season they were getting a lot more off the half wall or with quick plays down low. The narrative was that the were getting a ton of low percentage shots, because of how obscenely high their shooting rate was, but it wasn't true.

They're really beat up now after playing playoff style hockey for the last 3 months and don't create as much with their feet as they were before. They've gotten progressively slower.

Aho's been playing through a knee injury that probably would have him out of the lineup if the games weren't so damn important.

Nah. Earlier in the season they were getting a lot more off the half wall or with quick plays down low. The narrative was that the were getting a ton of low percentage shots, because of how obscenely high their shooting rate was, but it wasn't true.

They're really beat up now after playing playoff style hockey for the last 3 months and don't create as much with their feet as they were before. They've gotten progressively slower.

Aho's been playing through a knee injury that probably would have him out of the lineup if the games weren't so damn important.
- BINGO!

That hurts too. Aho is such a stud. I watched the game on the Canes broadcast and they said Ferlund has completely disappeared as of late.

The 42 year old center might not be able to create time and space for himself anymore, but if he does find some he can still make a few plays.

Where have I heard that before?

Good game last night. The Pens are giving up shots but are keeping the good scoring chances to a minimum. I think that is more important that wondering who gives up more shots. Also the Pens are crashing the net offensively and that is a good thing.

Letang, Malkin and DeSmith are going to get some playing time before the playoffs. My only warning is be careful what you wish for it may come true. The Islanders are going to have big support in their home games.

That hurts too. Aho is such a stud. I watched the game on the Canes broadcast and they said Ferlund has completely disappeared as of late.
- j.boyd919

Yep. As soon as they flipped him and Svechnikov he vanished.

He floated a little when he was moved away from Teuvo or Aho, but he's gone completely invisible now that he's on the 3rd line.

It's like he only gives a poop when he knows there are eyes on him or he knows he'll get chances without having to create them himself. Playing n the 3rd line he isn't even physical anymore.

Nah. Earlier in the season they were getting a lot more off the half wall or with quick plays down low. The narrative was that the were getting a ton of low percentage shots, because of how obscenely high their shooting rate was, but it wasn't true.

They're really beat up now after playing playoff style hockey for the last 3 months and don't create as much with their feet as they were before. They've gotten progressively slower.

Aho's been playing through a knee injury that probably would have him out of the lineup if the games weren't so damn important.
- BINGO!

Yah, they lead the league in high danger chances for at 5v5 so it isn't an issue about getting the right shots, they are lacking another elite shooter. Makes the skinner trade look worse.

Yah, they lead the league in high danger chances for at 5v5 so it isn't an issue about getting the right shots, they are lacking another elite shooter. Makes the skinner trade look worse.
- burgh4life87

I thought that the actual shot itself doesn't matter, it's about the chances.

Score effects too. Pens were up 2-0, 3-0... it happens almost every game where the team losing out shoots the team winning due to defensemen jumping into the play, playing a little looser, throwing more rubber at the net, etc. and winning teams tend to be more conservative.
- j.boyd919

Yeah, Pens controlled early, was about even through 2, but shots were all Carolina in the 3rd which happens when you're defending a 3 goal lead and you don't have Letang tilting the ice anyways.

Yah, they lead the league in high danger chances for at 5v5 so it isn't an issue about getting the right shots, they are lacking another elite shooter. Makes the skinner trade look worse.
- burgh4life87

Nah.

It sucks he's gone but it was the right decision.