I'm not disagreeing that both players have declined severely, i'm commenting on the broken record whining that he constantly writes over and over again.
- GPHawksfan

@JoeSmithTB
BREAKING: Steve Yzerman told #TBLightning players in a meeting today he’s stepping aside as GM to be in advisory role, per source. BriseBois taking over as GM.

@FriedgeHNIC
There is word that Steve Yzerman is stepping down in TB, and Julien Brisebois will take over. More to come

This always seems like the first step to leaving a org.
- L_B_R

Didn’t see that one coming!

Justin, LBR, Wiz, Darth, (others too)

So Ejdsell is not a great skater, not a great stick handler, and not that physical. But he has a great shot, is a good passer, can find the open space, and has a long stick for the poke check. Who would you say is a comparable around the NHL?

I think someone who can find open space and shoot the puck consistently can be a success in the NHL.

Debrincat is one example.

A pure shooter/sniper/scorer is hard to find. How many have the Hawks had in recent years. Kane, Panarin, Sharp, Larmer.... maybe a few others, but it is a pretty short list.

He's playing a great game this day.
- hocktock

What a great day that was.

17 seconds

@JoeSmithTB
BREAKING: Steve Yzerman told #TBLightning players in a meeting today he’s stepping aside as GM to be in advisory role, per source. BriseBois taking over as GM.

@FriedgeHNIC
There is word that Steve Yzerman is stepping down in TB, and Julien Brisebois will take over. More to come

This always seems like the first step to leaving a org.
- L_B_R

First Chelios - is the next step Yzerman? Free Little Ceasers pizza at the UC?

First Chelios - is the next step Yzerman? Free Little Ceasers pizza at the UC?
- powerenforcer

Well, could be, that maybe Ken Holland is getting ready to retire in Detroit And Stevie Y may be resetting the deck to take over the ship in hockey town?

I'm not disagreeing that both players have declined severely, i'm commenting on the broken record whining that he constantly writes over and over again.
- GPHawksfan

I don't view it as whining or complaining. He's been posting here a long time. Good guy. Knows a lot about the sport and his criticism, not that I always agree 100% and I'm sure he and many others don't agree 100% with mine, opens my eyes to things I may be missing. That's what great about a board like this. No point in taking personal shots.

I truly hope all comes up roses this year for the Hawks. I love playoff hockey and not seeing the Hawks in it was tough but I still watched, and will continue to do so.

I just got tired of the narrative by this organization at times and truly think they need a fresh set of eyes at GM and HC and shake things up a bit. Too many guys seem complacent and look......everyone here can say they went to games in the late 90s and up until 07-08 (when you could see they had something working) outside of the fluke playoff year in 01-02 and only they know if they are telling the truth or bs-ing. My point is, this organization shouldn't be run to appease fans and sign stars of a golden age to asinine deals (seabrook) because the previous generation of the Wirtz family would not.

So now we have to hope as fans, that 2/7/19/20 all bounce back and if they don't.....then the smart move is to quietly shop all 4 and see if you can maximize return in regards to assets and cap space and go from there. No point holding on to and forcing the next regime to skate guys who clearly are done just because you look up in the rafters and see banners of yesterday's success.

Yes loyalty matters, but so does making the right business decision and in today's world very few, if any, star athletes stay with 1 team their entire career. Fences can be mended long term and we can all get our retired number ceremony years down the road for the core of this team.

Didn’t see that one coming!
- walleyeb1

Got to wonder if he's frustrated with management and tried to make moves and was vetoed.

Sure he will land back in Detroit at some point.

Gotta love the people that get all salty and offended when the truth hurts. Sorry if it stings but the fact is 19, 7, and 2 are garbage now based on how much $$ they’re making. Toews and Seabrook specifically might literally go down as 2 of the worst 10 contracts handed out in NHL history.
- SimpleJack

How about valuing them by the ability and place on the team? Forget the contracts at this point - it's not your money (it's certainly not mine) and much of the pain of the cap hit has been removed (altho it certainly could come back into play at some point).

Questions are:

Is Toews still a top-6 center (if not a HOF-calibre center)?

Is Keith still a top-pairing defenseman (if not a Norris-calibre blue liner)?

Is Seabrook still a top-4 defenseman (if not all-star calibre)?

I have my opinion (yes - yes - maybe) - YMMV.

How about valuing them by the ability and place on the team? Forget the contracts at this point - it's not your money (it's certainly not mine) and much of the pain of the cap hit has been removed (altho it certainly could come back into play at some point).

Questions are:

Is Toews still a top-6 center (if not a HOF-calibre center)?

Is Keith still a top-pairing defenseman (if not a Norris-calibre blue liner)?

Is Seabrook still a top-4 defenseman (if not all-star calibre)?

I have my opinion (yes - yes - maybe) - YMMV.
- StLBravesFan

Toews used to be a Top 5 Center in the League, now he's probably not even a Top 10 2nd line center.

Keith used to be a Top 5 D in the entire league, now he's probably suited as a #4D on a good team. Don't let the Toews bashing (deserved) overshadow the precipitous drop in keith's play last year. Burned by speed, countless turnovers, and that UGLY -30 rating .

Seabrook used to be a Top 20 D in the entire leagu, now he's barely a 6D on a good team......


Like Rainman said, my expectations are low, but as a fan you want to see more consistent effort from the Leaders mentioned above. Murphy needs to step up and be a legit 4D or this season won't look much different than last IMO.

How about valuing them by the ability and place on the team? Forget the contracts at this point - it's not your money (it's certainly not mine) and much of the pain of the cap hit has been removed (altho it certainly could come back into play at some point).

Questions are:

Is Toews still a top-6 center (if not a HOF-calibre center)?
yes, on most teams he is easily number one, in the Western conference, aside from the Jets, Colorado and Dallas he'd be the number 1 on any of those other teams even though RyJo clowned him two years ago

Is Keith still a top-pairing defenseman (if not a Norris-calibre blue liner)?
yes, but only with a decent partner. not going to win a Norris and probably not carry a team through the playoffs but hasn't completely lost it yet

Is Seabrook still a top-4 defenseman (if not all-star calibre)?
on most teams probably, probably 17 minutes of special teams and bum slaying on a contending team

I have my opinion (yes - yes - maybe) - YMMV.
- StLBravesFan

responses above and in bold

How about valuing them by the ability and place on the team? Forget the contracts at this point - it's not your money (it's certainly not mine) and much of the pain of the cap hit has been removed (altho it certainly could come back into play at some point).

Questions are:

Is Toews still a top-6 center (if not a HOF-calibre center)?

Is Keith still a top-pairing defenseman (if not a Norris-calibre blue liner)?

Is Seabrook still a top-4 defenseman (if not all-star calibre)?

I have my opinion (yes - yes - maybe) - YMMV.
- StLBravesFan

All TBD - but the eye test and the numbers suggest the trend is not promising for any of them.

If they don't revert to some degree of their past performance, that is $22MM of BIG cap problems made worse by NMCs. Tail wags the dog here. With NMCs they have no incentive to excel, only an incentive to remain being paid.

All TBD - but the eye test and the numbers suggest the trend is not promising for any of them.

If they don't revert to some degree of their past performance, that is $22MM of BIG cap problems made worse by NMCs. Tail wags the dog here. With NMCs they have no incentive to excel, only an incentive to remain being paid.
- Return of the Roar

The numbers don't say that at all. The numbers are in line with STL's opinion above (though I'd lean toward less likely on the maybe for Seabrook, though he can be a great #5 that can slide up when needed imo). Whether they'll end up being accurate / realized is yet to be seen, though.

Justin, LBR, Wiz, Darth, (others too)

So Ejdsell is not a great skater, not a great stick handler, and not that physical. But he has a great shot, is a good passer, can find the open space, and has a long stick for the poke check. Who would you say is a comparable around the NHL?

I think someone who can find open space and shoot the puck consistently can be a success in the NHL.

Debrincat is one example.

A pure shooter/sniper/scorer is hard to find. How many have the Hawks had in recent years. Kane, Panarin, Sharp, Larmer.... maybe a few others, but it is a pretty short list.
- -Doh-

All of those guys were far better skaters than Edsjell. I am not just talking speed. You need quickness to get to the open spots. Edsjell just doesn't have it. Add in his balance is pretty bad and he is easily knock off stride.

DinkyCat is a way better skater than the perception. IMO

Toews used to be a Top 5 Center in the League, now he's probably not even a Top 10 2nd line center.

Keith used to be a Top 5 D in the entire league, now he's probably suited as a #4D on a good team. Don't let the Toews bashing (deserved) overshadow the precipitous drop in keith's play last year. Burned by speed, countless turnovers, and that UGLY -30 rating .

Seabrook used to be a Top 20 D in the entire leagu, now he's barely a 6D on a good team......


Like Rainman said, my expectations are low, but as a fan you want to see more consistent effort from the Leaders mentioned above. Murphy needs to step up and be a legit 4D or this season won't look much different than last IMO.
- EnzoD

Sorry. I like most of your posts (agree with some and disagree with some) , but I have to call you on this one. Toews, Keith and Seabs have regressed, but excluding salary ......
- Name 10 teams that would not take Toews as their 2nd line center.
- Name the teams with 3 better defenders than Keith.
- Name the teams with 5 better defenders than Seabs.

My expectations are moderate. I do not mind listening to opinions that have lower (or higher) expectations. But I do tire of seeing the same posts from the same people over and over and over.

First Chelios - is the next step Yzerman? Free Little Ceasers pizza at the UC?
- powerenforcer

Why? What has yzerman ever won as a GM. His teams are barely above 50% at even making the PO in his tenure. You know, for such the great job he has done in getting players.

People arguing that Seabrook is a Top4 D on a contending team. Based on what? What he did 6 years ago or last year? Based on hopes, dreams and blind faith. Pass me the bible, I'll take a shot.

Seabrook look liked pure toast last year, consistently walked wide, is slow footed and slow reacting, plays with little edge anymore. This is the result of miles and miles and miles of wonderful play, championship level moxie. But at some point it's done. Seabrook looks absolutely done to me. At best he is a bottom 6 guy, don't have him on the ice anywhere near young, fast skilled players. Match him against grinders and goons, fringe bottom 6 wingers and scrubs. Maybe let him play some PP, but overall the mighty Seabs reigns no more.

Could he return to form? A slimmer, trimmer, quicker and snappier #7? Maybe. Hell, he doesn't really hit much anymore, may as well become a faster skating D-man. It'd be like a baseball pitcher who used to be a power pitcher loses his stuff and comes back as a reasonably successful junk baller. That's what Seabrook needs to do, reinvent himself, because the jalopy that was on the ice wearing #7 last year was painfully sad to watch.

Idk maybe contribute something else to the conversation and people wouldn't roll their eye at those people who say the same thing over and over and over again. Even the people that might agree think it's overboard and obsessive.
- L_B_R

I would bet that Keith can still be quite good and still very fleet skater able to keep stride in coverage not near average even if he loss a bit. He will be another year removed from surgery so maybe the knee is stronger.

The whole thing about Keith is attitude IMHO. On a winning team, if he had some challenges or bonus for plus minus because his offensive totals with (hopefully) less pp would be quite an achievement. Put him with a solid as can be youngster, see the pair grow. Not an Osterle or at least not often Seabrook. I do not like Seabrook trying to cover when Keith is a rover. Let's see if Seabs is in better shape this season. I think his on ice smarts and relationship with a youngster can help that youngster immeasurably

I welcome thoughts on all of this. My ideas may not be the better solution

All TBD - but the eye test and the numbers suggest the trend is not promising for any of them.

If they don't revert to some degree of their past performance, that is $22MM of BIG cap problems made worse by NMCs. Tail wags the dog here. With NMCs they have no incentive to excel, only an incentive to remain being paid.
- Return of the Roar

Agreed.

If the hawks had a true offensive minded center-men who was borderline in his own zone, you wouldn't care as much regarding Toews.

However, I have to vote no here. Toews does NOT make people better around him. Hossa made Toews better and gave Saad that huge deal. Kane helps propel Toews game when they play together. who has toews carried?

Keith...agreed on a few posts back. lets not forget how quickly this guy;s game has fallen. He's a 2nd pairing d man on a LEGIT cup contender. That's all I care about. Sure, he could be a #1 on Ottawa. Great. Once The NHL cracked down on stick work and Keith lost a step, he has been exposed.

Seabrook's best asset is his shot and size. In a short window, playoff run, he could be a #4....on a 82 game march to the playoffs? I don't think his body can keep up and he will get exposed by quicker players when he can't slow them down, which the NHL will look away as the playoffs get deeper.

WE all know what Seabrook is....the only hope here is that Keith and Toews both can put up numbers instead of talking about them. Until at least 20 games in, I will with-hold any judgement on the season vs what it looks like on paper.

Sorry. I like most of your posts (agree with some and disagree with some) , but I have to call you on this one. Toews, Keith and Seabs have regressed, but excluding salary ......
- Name 10 teams that would not take Toews as their 2nd line center.
- Name the teams with 3 better defenders than Keith.
- Name the teams with 5 better defenders than Seabs.

My expectations are moderate. I do not mind listening to opinions that have lower (or higher) expectations. But I do tire of seeing the same posts from the same people over and over and over.
- -Doh-

More of the "woe is me, I am tired of what you write" crap. Here is an idea, just skip the damn post. Steve Rain had a good response to the "whining about whining" above.

How about valuing them by the ability and place on the team? Forget the contracts at this point - it's not your money (it's certainly not mine) and much of the pain of the cap hit has been removed (altho it certainly could come back into play at some point).

Questions are:

Is Toews still a top-6 center (if not a HOF-calibre center)?

Is Keith still a top-pairing defenseman (if not a Norris-calibre blue liner)?

Is Seabrook still a top-4 defenseman (if not all-star calibre)?

I have my opinion (yes - yes - maybe) - YMMV.
- StLBravesFan

Well reasoned post. All 3 players are still import pieces for the team and will be playing important minutes yet again. Hard to appreciate the value of them when the team is losing, but these guys are still key until proven otherwise.

Agreed.

If the hawks had a true offensive minded center-men who was borderline in his own zone, you wouldn't care as much regarding Toews.

However, I have to vote no here. Toews does NOT make people better around him. Hossa made Toews better and gave Saad that huge deal. Kane helps propel Toews game when they play together. who has toews carried?

Keith...agreed on a few posts back. lets not forget how quickly this guy;s game has fallen. He's a 2nd pairing d man on a LEGIT cup contender. That's all I care about. Sure, he could be a #1 on Ottawa. Great. Once The NHL cracked down on stick work and Keith lost a step, he has been exposed.

Seabrook's best asset is his shot and size. In a short window, playoff run, he could be a #4....on a 82 game march to the playoffs? I don't think his body can keep up and he will get exposed by quicker players when he can't slow them down, which the NHL will look away as the playoffs get deeper.

WE all know what Seabrook is....the only hope here is that Keith and Toews both can put up numbers instead of talking about them. Until at least 20 games in, I will with-hold any judgement on the season vs what it looks like on paper.
- SteveRain

Excellent post. Here is hoping some younger, quicker D-men additions will allow Seabrook to play in certain situations where he can succeed. His contract notwithstanding, #7 just can't be deployed in all situations anymore, that is painfully obvious to all but the most deluded. However, he can be useful in the right spots, the right moments, he's a superb leader and a warrior, which is useful to teams either running for the gold or rebuilding.

Justin, LBR, Wiz, Darth, (others too)

So Ejdsell is not a great skater, not a great stick handler, and not that physical. But he has a great shot, is a good passer, can find the open space, and has a long stick for the poke check. Who would you say is a comparable around the NHL?

I think someone who can find open space and shoot the puck consistently can be a success in the NHL.

Debrincat is one example.

A pure shooter/sniper/scorer is hard to find. How many have the Hawks had in recent years. Kane, Panarin, Sharp, Larmer.... maybe a few others, but it is a pretty short list.
- -Doh-

I would be happy to be wrong about Ejdsell.

What a great day that was.

17 seconds
- hocktock

Was out, but got home at the end of the championship film...RIP Ray Emery.😢

Sorry. I like most of your posts (agree with some and disagree with some) , but I have to call you on this one. Toews, Keith and Seabs have regressed, but excluding salary ......
- Name 10 teams that would not take Toews as their 2nd line center.
- Name the teams with 3 better defenders than Keith.
- Name the teams with 5 better defenders than Seabs.

My expectations are moderate. I do not mind listening to opinions that have lower (or higher) expectations. But I do tire of seeing the same posts from the same people over and over and over.
- -Doh-

I was talking about Toews as 1.

As far as Keith....Nashville for one. Has better defenders. Ellis, Subban, Jossi. That puts him at #4....I said he's probably a 2nd pairing D man....

Nashville, Winnipeg, St Louis, San Jose, Tampa...th0se teams today I would take their top 2 d men over TODAY's version of Duncan Keith.

There are teams that have 1 for sure and arguably a 2nd...…

Toews as 1 line center?

Washington (if Backstrom is playing 2nd line center, toews would 3rd on this team), Boston, Tampa, Pittsburgh (again he'd be 3rd behind Crosby and Malkin), Toronto (he'd be 3rd behind Matthews and Tavares), Winnipeg, Nashville (ryjo owned him in 17 playoffs), San Jose (if couture and pavelski are both at c, he's 3rd on this team), and Edmonton

Again...current day.

JUST my opinion, but my eyes were opened in that Nashville beat down in APril of 2017 and not much has changed since then.