LMAO you can make Richard jokes on here all day. The facts remain, how many smallish, soft, and skill forwards can one team have? It looks like Stan Bowman is trying to find out. BTW, I only jabbed back at your non-player status bc you've really been harping on the Richard size jokes lately. They are reallllly funny FYI I drive a Subaru Outback for the longevity, durability, 4WD for the mountains up here in Colorado, and tons of storage space. Really quality car, highly recommend.


- EnzoD

Enzo and L_B_R: I really,really enjoy both of your perspectives. Always! This one's different - it's like watching an old married couple argue in a restaurant over the one type of pie they are ordering for desert. Thanks for this interplay - it hit the spot after a boring day at work!

Man, the way you described your car came across insecure about something js. If that's not how you intended, you need to work on your word choices. I also only do the jokes cause I get reactions like yours

And nah, I played hockey through high school until we moved to the south but there isn't hitting really, so idk personally about that kind of thing, no. But I'm also not claiming I'm an expert on the physicality level in NHL hockey like you seem to be, a man who also has never played in the NHL.
- L_B_R[B]The idea that someone had to have played hockey or gotten to a certain level to know or understand the game is elitist and often wrong af. Personally, I don't care if a fan played forever or had never even been on an ice rink - pretty much everyone can contribute to discussions and we can all learn from each other. I like getting to talk to the guys who have different experiences and such but that's just me.

I do think it's weird that you're a fan of Kane but really obsessed with size first and foremost atm. And it does come off as obsessed, joking aside, because you rarely talk about anything else when assessing a player or it's the first thing you mention. I only ever replied to you specifically cause you said something objectively false about size. I know you have other opinions on these players and I have even agreed with you on more than one occasion with you in the past. It's just one thing to think the Hawks could use some players with different qualities, including size, but it's weird to be so hyper focused. Do you not think it's a little weird?? It's why it's so easy to make the jokes.

I guess I'd like to go back to when you added more to the discussions because I did like reading your other thoughts, even when I didn't always agree. Not just you, general you - there are a few guys here who I used to like to read your thoughts, even if I didn't necessary fall in line with their thinking, that seem to be hyper focused instead of more open to other topics. It makes it kind of monotonous, don't you think?

Anyway, I totally think size has it's place, and the Hawks could use some of it their players, but there's more to a player than that and reducing them to their height/weight is a terrible way to go about building a team imo. The Hawks and Pens have been some of the smallest teams to win in the last 5-6 years so while I agree there needs to be a balance (something I've said more than once), focusing on big dudes for the sake of big dudes is pointless.

Hey, if a scared chickens**t draft dodged can grow up to be the commander in chief, anyone can presuppose they know what it's like to have played in the Nhl.

Agreed.

There is a place for both stats/numbers and the old gut feeling/eye test.

The part where I have a problem with stats is when people dump them on others and refuse to acknowledge the other persons point. It always comes off as very pompous and a way for them to seem like a better "student" of the game - the irony is that it makes them look small-minded.

Obviously numbers are important, but the bottom line is hockey is a physical game and having physicality on your side can be a great weapon/advantage - regardless of how the game is shifting.

I hate this trend/idea that has crept in and being championed by many "enlightened" fans, that suggesting you want your team to beef up a bit, is somehow now backwards thinking and makes you an unintelligent brute or caveman.
- Hank3Henshaw

Definitely think you need to look at and balance both perspectives.

Enzo and L_B_R: I really,really enjoy both of your perspectives. Always! This one's different - it's like watching an old married couple argue in a restaurant over the one type of pie they are ordering for desert. Thanks for this interplay - it hit the spot after a boring day at work!
- Spec41971

I appreciate LBR and any other advanced stats people post on that subject. My point in calling out Stanley Bowman for never playing hockey at a high level at any time in his life is that he simply has a much different perspective on the sport. You can, and there are many here, who may have never played are experts on the game and I respect their opinion/analysis. I think many of those would agree that a skill/size balance throughout the roster is needed. However, based on how Stan Bowman has repeatedly drafted and signed players, I truly think he is clueless on the physicality of the game. Name one team softer or easier to play against than the Hawks last year???

However, you can't be just one (player only, or stats guy only) to be an effective GM as possible in the NHL anymore. Look at the GM in Arizona John Chayka as a perfect example of an Advanced Stats proponent who also played Junior Hockey. The kid he took at #5 overall is definitely not a "advanced stats" based pick, but a character/compete/intangibles/positional pick.

I seriously couldn't believe it when Zhamnov became a Hawk!
I agree...soooo smooth.
Just effortless stick-handler it seemed.
One of the few players to score 5 goals in a game as well.
Every time I show people my office at home...they are dumbfounded by my collection of mostly Zhamnov and some Larmer stuff!
Sad part is when I am ready to let it go to a good home...I will have nobody to leave it too lol
At least not in Winnipeg
- DixieDog

I agree with bromance of Zhamnov. His style of skating and skills would definitely light it up in today's game vs the clutching/grabbing, no two-line passes, etc. when he played. He would be the olden day version of Kuznetszov who I think is awesome, maybe the best skating forward in the league now

Indeed! Hawks have GOT to know they aren't close and all the nonsense from Bowman is purely PR fluff to appease the bandwagoners that are jumping ship by the thousands. I am an advocate for a full rebuild with a target of 2020/21 to truly compete. That target year is contingent on Kane still being a Top 10 offensive player in the league, Keith still being Top Pair, Schmaltz/Cat being good for 60 points each, and Jokiharju, Boquist and/or Beaudin all being legitimately talented NHL players....oh and they find a new goalie.
- EnzoD

Enzo for GM!

Teams interested in Keith would look at him as somebody who can help put them over the top immediately - like Toronto, Winnipeg, Pittsburgh, maybe Vegas or even St.Louis. And their #1 pick just becomes a #27-31 selection in the draft.

I would want at least 2 young who have played extremely well in the AHL in the last 2 seasons. Toronto hadthat depth but because they have let JVR, Komarov and Bozak go they have to fill internally.

But trading one guy, Keith, isn't a total rebuild to me. Its giving up an aging great Dman in order to get younger and acquire talent to shore up other areas of weakness.
- RickJ

Great points! If we are going full REBUILD then out of those teams listed above, Toronto would be my choice for a variety of reasons: Babcock loves Keith (inflate the deal) good talent especially the young ones. So back to the original question: How about Keith for Kadri and and young D prospect (hopefully big and mean that can skate)?

Grew up in Portland, OR. Sat at my dad's knee watching and learning about every sport EXCEPT for hockey (unless you count the Miracle on Ice game). We had the Winterhawks, but they were a blip on my radar. Was a gymnast, dancer, softball, basketball, and soccer player while growing up. Went to NBA games off and on, then got swept up in Blazers fervor in the Drexler/Kersey/Porter years when they were challenging for the title. Fell out of obsession (but not love) after moving to Chicago and after watching most of our starting five spend time in jail one summer and seeing the bingo-bango-bongo team play replaced with selfish showboating.

After 12 years in Chicago, I went to a Hawks game in March 2013 on a lark. It was the Wild game where we were celebrating Hossa's (coincidentally, a former Winterhawk) 1000th game and that amazing 2013 winning streak. The crowd in the 300-level was electric, but that was nothing compared to the action on the ice. I fell in love with the speed, skill, and the intensity of the game. I was fascinated with the rules about when you could and couldn't leave your seat and the blowback that engendered.

After that, I started reading and watching everything I could about the Hawks. I almost fell out of my office window leaning out to watch them parade by for the 2013 Cup parade. I have bought the sweaters and gone to as many games and player-sponsored charity events as I could reasonably afford since. And, yes, McD's marketing of them as personalities worked on me. I still cry if I watch Sharpy's post-trade video and shedding the core (or watching them retire) hurts, even while I constantly question what the hell is going on with Keith and Toews. I've watched almost every game the past couple of seasons and it was hard to see the deterioration, but even more painful to see a lack of effort.

Finding this community in the summer of 2015 when I was looking for a place full of hockey fans that was not advocating a lynch mob for the Hawks and Kane (I was in the "wait and see what the evidence shows" camp) was a godsend. I'll be forever grateful for the chance to learn from the much more experienced folks here. Justin is a fantastic read and an even better conversation facilitator, so I'll stick around through the team's ups and downs.

So thanks to you all!

Enzo for GM!
- Hawkster

It would be tough to leave beautiful Colorado and my current job, but maybe Rocky is open to working remotely like Scotty Bowman calling the shots from Florida.

Great points! If we are going full REBUILD then out of those teams listed above, Toronto would be my choice for a variety of reasons: Babcock loves Keith (inflate the deal) good talent especially the young ones. So back to the original question: How about Keith for Kadri and and young D prospect (hopefully big and mean that can skate)?
- D2D

Toss in their 1st round pick, and the D prospect has to Timothy Liljegren, sign me up!

AHH yes LBR, another who sits in her skybox looking at advanced stats so there is litle surprise you are another one who thinks this is Euro Ice no check mens league LOL. Never taken a body check along the boards or tried to get to the crease with a big nasty Dman in your face. He may be 200lbs soaking wet, but he is still soft and a perimeter player.
- EnzoD

Tell that to Kyle Dubas, Oakland A's (Moneyball), etc. Simply said, while it is not the end all be all, it certainly should factor somewhat in an organizational decision especially doling big contracts via re-up, UFA's and RFA's!

Tell that to Kyle Dubas, Oakland A's (Moneyball), etc. Simply said, while it is not the end all be all, it certainly should factor somewhat in an organizational decision especially doling big contracts via re-up, UFA's and RFA's!
- D2D

See my post a few up.

I was just doing the same! Thanks for the synopsis. I don't think he is a bad signing, but I'm not sure if he is just an extra forward taking the place of a younger player on this team.

This screams to me Sami Paulsson. A fine player in his own right, but not really the best player to have where we are right now. I normally am all for gathering "useful" players, but to beat the same drum Rico was earlier, the Hawks need to determine a plan and stick to it. This smells like a move made to try and go two directions at once.
- Chunk

This is where I really have to defer to the NHL types who know the "room". I'm a huge believer that NHL ice time is very valuable and it should not be wasted and an argument can easily be made that Kunitz is taking that NHL ice time from a younger player, but:

I'm reading where a place like BUF or VAN they are worried that all out losing can affect the young players, a culture of losing "can" set in. That a guy like Kunitz can help in that regard both on an off the ice even on a team that ain't gonna make a serious run. Again, having played the sport I haven't been in a room where the pressure to win is at the NHL level, same as I haven't endured the travel they do. So I have to defer on this account as I have no reference point to draw from.

Plus the thing was a train wreck last yr and I agree with Rick I don't ever think we're gonna see a tear it down rebuild. A guy like Kunitz, who no doubt is taking very valuable ice time, but at the same time will be skating with a Hayden type and will help him develop, will help the club not be a clown show.

Again I defer and also see where they can be going in two directions at once or trying to "split the difference" between a retool-rebuild and not be a clown show and or make sure a losing culture does not set in.

Tough call on this one for me.

Man, the way you described your car came across insecure about something js. If that's not how you intended, you need to work on your word choices. I also only do the jokes cause I get reactions like yours

And nah, I played hockey through high school until we moved to the south but there isn't hitting really, so idk personally about that kind of thing, no. But I'm also not claiming I'm an expert on the physicality level in NHL hockey like you seem to be, a man who also has never played in the NHL. The idea that someone had to have played hockey or gotten to a certain level to know or understand the game is elitist and often wrong af. Personally, I don't care if a fan played forever or had never even been on an ice rink - pretty much everyone can contribute to discussions and we can all learn from each other. I like getting to talk to the guys who have different experiences and such but that's just me.

I do think it's weird that you're a fan of Kane but really obsessed with size first and foremost atm. And it does come off as obsessed, joking aside, because you rarely talk about anything else when assessing a player or it's the first thing you mention. I only ever replied to you specifically cause you said something objectively false about size. I know you have other opinions on these players and I have even agreed with you on more than one occasion with you in the past. It's just one thing to think the Hawks could use some players with different qualities, including size, but it's weird to be so hyper focused. Do you not think it's a little weird?? It's why it's so easy to make the jokes.

I guess I'd like to go back to when you added more to the discussions because I did like reading your other thoughts, even when I didn't always agree. Not just you, general you - there are a few guys here who I used to like to read your thoughts, even if I didn't necessary fall in line with their thinking, that seem to be hyper focused instead of more open to other topics. It makes it kind of monotonous, don't you think?

Anyway, I totally think size has it's place, and the Hawks could use some of it their players, but there's more to a player than that and reducing them to their height/weight is a terrible way to go about building a team imo. The Hawks and Pens have been some of the smallest teams to win in the last 5-6 years so while I agree there needs to be a balance (something I've said more than once), focusing on big dudes for the sake of big dudes is pointless.
- L_B_R

Enzo is a big boy so I'll let him defend himself. And I respect all efforts involved in the game, agree or disagree. And I have to admit I don't understand a lot of your advanced stats. But I'll give you a stat that is a slam dunk. 100% of the people who say size doesn't matter in a competitive high level hockey game are people who never participated in a full contact high level game, especially if fighting is allowed, and sometimes even if it's not.

Staged fights are ridiculous and a clown show. But digging the puck out of a corner or battling for position in front of a net with the possibility of getting your ass handed to you if the opposing player gets pissed takes guts. Believe me, size matters.

There's not as much fighting as there used to be in the NHL and that's a good thing. But the game is (or should be) emotional, tough, difficult. And sometimes poop is gonna happen. If there is a badass on the ice his team mates play bigger and the other team plays more careful. Once in a while there comes along a small guy who doesn't care about size. Like Shaw, but they tend to not last real long. Why? Size. It just (frank)ing matters over the course of a season.

I wish there was a way to measure heart and passion with your advanced stats. College womens teams played with more passion last year than the Hawks did. I'm not trying to be condescending, I have coached girls teams and they give an effort that's amazing and even saw one of the girls go on to play in the Olympics. Huge thrill for this guy.

You and Enzo both make sense most of the time. At least until you two start the sniping. Go pound an old fashioned while he has a smoke and everyone be well.

This seems like a old person reference lol jk jk

Though seriously that is not a character I would know anything about - never seen Cheers or Fraiser.
- L_B_R

Red skeleton or uncle miltie would be an old person’s reference. Cheers was great in it’s day; some intelligent writing given the subject matter. I see cheers or fraiser as a middle age reference.

LBR - you are the Frasier Crane of this board
- Hank3Henshaw

So would that make Enzo the Cliff Claven of the board?

Did you watch any of the Pens in their first of back-to-back SC's? I remember their D not being all that great, but their forwards all pressured very hard. Was it mostly the lower level guys doing most of the hard work here and the top level guys doing their thing, or did everyone play the same way?

My point being that It doesn't look like we necessarily need upgrades all around, if we have everyone playing together and on the same page. VGK is another example.

At the end of the day, there will always be some supremely talented teams that you can't do anything about, but there are even more that just gel together and do more playing than thinking.

I'd hope that the Hawks bank on being the latter.
- Chunk

The yr Daley couldn't cut it here, Q ran him out and he won a cup with the Pens? Damn right, the Pens D was a rag tag group but as I was watching this I noticed something. Sullivan using what he had, more than one way to skin a cat, knew his Dmen weren't able to turn, retrieve and make good enough decisions in the classic way in their zone had them retrieve and simply flip the thing to center ice. Like pee wee hockey, push it out and chase.

Unless that is your system it's blasphemy to give the puck up at center ice but if it's a system that's practiced, like a set play, it can work and did for Sullivan's group.

Watched a few times the D flip it out to center ice, a forward anticipating flew hair on fire to the opposing Dman who was collecting a bouncing puck in the neutral zone and engaged just trying to knock it loose to an area, the other wing high tailing to support (that was the system) would grab the loose puck and was off with the 3rd forward or a Dman following for support and they would get an odd man break out of a simple flip out.

This happened 2-3-4 times and I thought this ain't a coincidence and rewound and rewound and sure enough that was their system looking at it a few times.

But most importantly Sullivan set up a system where his rag tag defense wouldn't turn the thing over in their own zone. If they did turn it over they did so 100+ feet from their goalie and if it worked, got a good bounce or a badly played bouncing puck by the opposing Dman, Crosby/Malkin/Kessel and company got an odd man break.

Masterful.

Did you watch any of the Pens in their first of back-to-back SC's? I remember their D not being all that great, but their forwards all pressured very hard. Was it mostly the lower level guys doing most of the hard work here and the top level guys doing their thing, or did everyone play the same way?

My point being that It doesn't look like we necessarily need upgrades all around, if we have everyone playing together and on the same page. VGK is another example.

At the end of the day, there will always be some supremely talented teams that you can't do anything about, but there are even more that just gel together and do more playing than thinking.

I'd hope that the Hawks bank on being the latter.
- Chunk

Totally agree. Hawks could effectively turn over their entire 22 or 23 roster and be competitive if — and it’s a big, big if — they each notch their game up. The 2020 and 2013 teams buzzed all over the ice and displayed a lot of heart. Didn’t see that last year - but I bet they have it in them if they did deep enough.

You have to question his lack of production in the playoffs when the speed is picked up, but for 1 year on the cheap I really like the signing. Chris Kunitz brings the edge that this team has never really had since 2010. He is a mean mofo, works his butt off, finishes his checks, and given his playing time and production last year..still has something left to give in a depth role. Show these kids how to play with skill AND nasty. 4 Cups and the locker room presence will hopefully help as I think all of us can agree based on compete level last year....the locker room culture isn't very strong.
- EnzoD

And he'll be skating with a Hayden, Edjsell, Martinson, Luke Johnson, Kampf. Maybe playing with Kunitz bottom 6 guys will learn about compete and physical play, playing with an edge from a real pro at that style?

I appreciate LBR and any other advanced stats people post on that subject. My point in calling out Stanley Bowman for never playing hockey at a high level at any time in his life is that he simply has a much different perspective on the sport. You can, and there are many here, who may have never played are experts on the game and I respect their opinion/analysis. I think many of those would agree that a skill/size balance throughout the roster is needed. However, based on how Stan Bowman has repeatedly drafted and signed players, I truly think he is clueless on the physicality of the game. Name one team softer or easier to play against than the Hawks last year???

However, you can't be just one (player only, or stats guy only) to be an effective GM as possible in the NHL anymore. Look at the GM in Arizona John Chayka as a perfect example of an Advanced Stats proponent who also played Junior Hockey. The kid he took at #5 overall is definitely not a "advanced stats" based pick, but a character/compete/intangibles/positional pick.
- EnzoD

Agree that you need to balance stats and guts/eye check. Too much of one is not a good thing.

And my point on the back and forth between you and L_B_R was that you were both standing your ground but doing it in an intelligent, articulate and respectful manner! Standing O for both of you!

That's hilarious. He could give the Hawks some net front presence on their PP.
- RickJ

I couldn't stop thinking about that pic for a week. Not only the pure hilarity of it but man how proud you think his old man was, mom too?

And he'll be skating with a Hayden, Edjsell, Martinson, Luke Johnson, Kampf. Maybe playing with Kunitz bottom 6 guys will learn about compete and physical play, playing with an edge from a real pro at that style?
- Mr Ricochet

hence why he was signed

Bit of a delayed reply, but you know... time difference down here and all.

Much like a previous poster, I come from a non-traditional hockey market. My first experience was watching the Mighty Ducks movies, and then spending my hard earned pocket money on a pre-owned copy of NHL '96 on the Super Nintendo. (I was about 6-7 years old at this stage)

When going into the quick game option, the two team options it gave me were the Hawks and the Penguins. I loved the hawks logo more, and also enjoyed the physicality of the game, namely from one Chris Chelios. From there, I did whatever I could to follow hockey and the Hawks. From reading early blogs and trawling websites on slow dial-up internet, to eagerly waiting in line to buy every NHL game that came out. I saw the hawks slide down, and then felt the joy of seeing the resurgence years later.

Hockey is slowly growing here in Australia, and now I am constantly referred to a bandwagoner by anyone that asks who I follow, until I rattle off some memories like the ones above, and they realise that I have spent almost 20 years as a hawks fan.
Would love to get over and see a game at some stage, as the AIHL doesn't really compare.

Just a bit of an essay to show that the Hawks and hockey are truly worldwide.
So for those who can't make it to games, blogs like this are a lifesaver. Please keep up the good work JL and posters

So would that make Enzo the Cliff Claven of the board?
- HawkintheD

I would save that role for that troll from Nashville, who hasn’t reappeared since the Preds got ousted. Figure the guy lives with Mom just like cliff. He’s probably on a stool somewhere telling everyone who will or won’t listen about how great the Preds are. When he’s not on the stool he’s probably home mapping out the parade route.

I got interested in the hawks as a 10-year-old in the fall of the 1961-62 season — didn’t even know that they had won the cup the previous season and didn’t even know what the cup was. Started skating shortly thereafter and played pickup games on the northwest side of Chicago every winter. (I could swear that we could skate at the park district rinks from December through February back then. Don’t think they even flood the fields any more.)

Remember taking the cta down Lawrence avenue to play at the Rainbow Ice Arena in spring, summer and fall. A friend’s dad used to haul us to indoors in park ridge, des plaines and one or two places I can’t remember.)

Was an absolute diehard fan for about 9 years until i got drafted. Bobby Hull, Stan, Pierre pilote, pat Stapleton, Chico maki, the mph line, the espitos, glen hall and Tony o to name a few. Remember listening to Lloyd petit (?) on the radio in the family stereo fidelity center that was as big as a two ovens placed side by side and all it had was a radio and turntable. Was stationed in NJ when they let Bobby Hull sign with the WHL or whatever it was called back then. That was, for me, the day hockey died.

Stayed away as a fan but always came back during the playoffs, regardless who was playing. Still feel to this day that playoff hockey is the best playoff competition in North America.

Started coming back around the mid 2000’s and thought that hockey was reborn when wirtz passed. Been heavily invested since.