Um, for example, Nicklas Backstrom only makes 6.7 per. You're saying Schmaltz is worth only 700K less than a guy like that?
- Murph76

Um, ignoring how market value changes year to year, let's just focus on the easiest thing: Backstrom was signed before the new CBA and thus has a higher term limit than Schmaltz is eligible to get ever, and at the same eligibility, Backstrom would be making $8.4m.

This is why you cannot compare pre-2013 CBA contracts to those signed after - the rules changed in a major way. And this is why the comparables in that table were all post-that with similar games played. Schmaltz at $6x6 is completely in line with deals for other similar players.

Um, for example, Nicklas Backstrom only makes 6.7 per. You're saying Schmaltz is worth only 700K less than a guy like that?
- Murph76

Yep - lets base current pay on a contract that was executed 9 years ago (Backstrom is in the ninth year of a ten year contract).

JJ


Source this AM: Hawks kicking the tires/discussing C/W Oscar Lindberg, VGK and W/C Sam Gagner, VAN
- mrpaulish

Pass on Gagner. I'd much rather have Erik Haula, knowing it will cost more to boot, its worth it.

Anisimov + Nicolas Beaudin or Douh Mitchell for Erik Haula

As is jumping the gun, see Capt. Serious + Seabrook. Too much for too long and we regress into cap hell once more.
- Murph76

Completely different situations than Schmaltz. Toews was 26 and in the season in which he would win a 3rd Cup, widely considered to be one of the top players in the game. He got that contract based on past performance and success and probably could have received more on the open market at the time. The problem with Seabrooks contract is more length/age than amount at the time.

Hindsight is 20/20, I notice you are not complaining about Kane.

Yep - lets base current pay on a contract that was executed 9 years ago (Backstrom is in the ninth year of a ten year contract).
- StLBravesFan

He was just an example smart guy, my f***** point is WHY not give 6 mil to an established player who you know what you're getting year after year instead of taking a huge gamble with that kind of money/term on Schmaltz? Why is this so franking hard to understand?

Um, for example, Nicklas Backstrom only makes 6.7 per. You're saying Schmaltz is worth only 700K less than a guy like that?
- Murph76

And when Duncan Keith was winning multiple cups, Norris Trophies, a Conn Smythe he was making only 5mil - a ridiculous bargain.

He was just an example smart guy, my f***** point is WHY not give 6 mil to an established player who you know what you're getting year after year instead of taking a huge gamble with that kind of money/term on Schmaltz? Why is this so franking hard to understand?
- Murph76

Because you hope that in later years of the deal you're getting a bargain, that's why - smart guy.

It's a risk/gamble on both ends, done by every sport

He was just an example smart guy, my f***** point is WHY not give 6 mil to an established player who you know what you're getting year after year instead of taking a huge gamble with that kind of money/term on Schmaltz? Why is this so franking hard to understand?
- Murph76

Who is that $6mil established player you speak of?

And when Duncan Keith was winning multiple cups, Norris Trophies, a Conn Smythe he was making only 5mil - a ridiculous bargain.
- PatShart

and, considering what D-men are getting these days, he remains a bargain.

Because you hope that in later years of the deal you're getting a bargain, that's why - smart guy.

It's a risk/gamble on both ends, done by every sport
- PatShart

Not one I think this team which hasn't been a favored cup contender in 3 years can afford to take.

And when Duncan Keith was winning multiple cups, Norris Trophies, a Conn Smythe he was making only 5mil - a ridiculous bargain.
- PatShart

Yes, though only because the old CBA allowed it - Keith would have nearly double that cap hit if he was limited in term to what players are now. Hossa may never have signed with the Hawks without that loophole. Who knows. If Doughty could sign for the same term now as Keith did then, his cap hit would only be $6.8m instead of $11m. Magic of term limits and context, oh my.

It just proves how silly it is to compare contracts from pre-2013 CBA to stuff given out now (not to mention the fact that market value for contracts have been on the rise with the cap).

He was just an example smart guy, my f***** point is WHY not give 6 mil to an established player who you know what you're getting year after year instead of taking a huge gamble with that kind of money/term on Schmaltz? Why is this so franking hard to understand?
- Murph76

Because an established player will play at or around $6M worth, a lot of times, potentially less. Paying a 22 year old, who is improving, $6M, has the potential to play higher than his contract. You're argument here is to pay a player based on past performance, since you know what you're getting. So.... Toews/Seabrook?

I would be surprised if this is the starting blue line.

IMO Manning will probably play on the left side and unlikely the Hillman would bump him out of the gate. I don't think they paid Rutta 2.3 million to not play and Jokiharju would have to be pretty darn special to enter the league playing on the top pair. Not impossible, but how man dmen come in and just play top pair and face the other teams tough competition? I could see him pairing with Keith if they have a shutdown pair like they used to with Hjalmarsson and Oduya, so that would take pressure off. A guy like Raddysh might be more NHL ready too and could start pushing for a chance to play on the Right-hand side.

I think it could be really hard to know, since it seems like the Hawks are probably going to move someone. Assuming they trade Murphy and demote/move Oesterle, I think the front runners for 1RD are gonna be

1) A new RD they pickup in trade (If they do)
2) Rutta
3) Seabrook

Again, hard to say until the dust settles, moves are made the guys get to camp, but I really don't see Jokiharju (who just turned 19) just entering the NHL as a top pair guy day 1.
- breadbag

Agree with your analysis pretty much point for point. Going off of the premise of the article of charting out a projected blueline with current players as the roster stands today, this may be a more realistic possibility:

Keith - Murphy
Gustafsson - Seabrook
Manning - Rutta
Oesterle, Forsling

Not very strong at all and not an upgrade from last season but if that's what Q has to work with, he doesn't have any options besides managing the hand he is dealt.

Hillman and Jokiharju could surprise but not holding my breath. I think they are better off developing as much as they can in Rockford with Colliton and his staff. Maybe mid-season call ups or subs due to injuries, etc. I do see Hillman and Jokiharju as future starters, just not this early.

He was just an example smart guy, my f***** point is WHY not give 6 mil to an established player who you know what you're getting year after year instead of taking a huge gamble with that kind of money/term on Schmaltz? Why is this so franking hard to understand?
- Murph76

Except it isn't really a huge gamble. The proof is on the ice watching him play and knowing that 99% of the time, guys who play well at age 22 continue to play well and usually better unless they get some kind of serious injury.

We all know it would be great to pay less, but going rate and comparables exist for a reason.

Who is that $6mil established player you speak of?
- TheTrob

Really, you can't think of anyone in the league who is making 6 mil per season that you'd want more than Schmaltz? I'll start with Tyler Seguin for one 26...makes 5.75 Mil, plays center and RW, and puts up over 70 points per season...that's the kind of guy you give over 6 to for term. And before anyone says hes due a raise, give him one! But like I said, he's a solid proven investment!!!!

Lets look at it like this...

6Y/6M for Schmaltz IS an over pay.
2Y/4M as bridge IS a huge risk that Schmaltz turns into a 7-8M player and we are priced out.

If Bowman loses him now or even in 2 years and then we have the same problem... he has failed.

If he hands out another high term/high $ contract and he cant support the core adequately top to bottom and we lose again... he has failed.

This is where SB needs to be better. finding contracts that players can live with and help develop the team. Help them buy into the project.

Ideally, you tell Schmaltz here is 4.6 for 5 years (23M) and it works. he would be 26 and still primed for a huge payday then, if he progresses. And in the mean time, its not going to break the bank and you can figure out your cap for that time when you might have to pay him more. Sets the precedent for DCats raise too.

But what incentive does Schmaltz have to take less than 5.5M? or maybe he tells himself give me 6M OR a contract less than 3 years OR I walk. This is where Bowman needs to make it happen. Sell him on why 4.6M/5Y is the way to go for the team.

Really, you can't think of anyone in the league who is making 6 mil per season that you'd want more than Schmaltz? I'll start with Tyler Seguin for one 26, makes 5.75 Mil, plays center and RW, and puts up over 70 points per season...that's the kind of guy you give over 6 to for term.
- Murph76

Trade for him, you have to pay waaaaaaay more.
If he's a FA, he's signing for $8-$9M. Probably what Panarin gets.

Moral of the story, you cannot, and will not, get him for Schmaltz or $6M.

Also, look at when he signed that contract. Seguin is the PERFECT example of why you sign Schmaltz to 6/6. You hope you get a Seguin player.

Trade for him, you have to pay waaaaaaay more.
If he's a FA, he's signing for $8-$9M. Probably what Panarin gets.

Moral of the story, you cannot, and will not, get him for Schmaltz or $6M.
- HawksHype

I'd give Seguin $8m before I gave Schmaltz $6m all day.

I'd give Seguin $8m before I gave Schmaltz $6m all day.
- Murph76

That's not the argument... also, if that were a possibility, we would probably still have Panarin. It's not in the cards.

Really, you can't think of anyone in the league who is making 6 mil per season that you'd want more than Schmaltz? I'll start with Tyler Seguin for one 26...makes 5.75 Mil, plays center and RW, and puts up over 70 points per season...that's the kind of guy you give over 6 to for term. And before anyone says hes due a raise, give him one! But like I said, he's a solid proven investment!!!!
- Murph76

You realize that at the time that Seguin signed that contract that he actually had a lower PPG than Schmaltz did over his first two seasons, right? Seguin was younger, but he'd only played in about 15 more games at that point than Schmaltz has now. So with general market value rising year over year for 6 seasons, a difference of $250k isn't much.

You realize that at the time that Seguin signed that contract that he actually had a lower PPG than Schmaltz did over his first two seasons, right? Seguin was younger, but he'd only played in about 15 more games at that point than Schmaltz has now. So with general market value rising year over year for 6 seasons, a difference of $250k isn't much.
- L_B_R

I don't think he's ever going to get it. He wants his cake and to eat it too. And he wants it to be free and delivered to him. But going back to my original comment on this topic, this is the reason Bowman will never win, not matter what he does.

Would rather see a long term deal for Schmaltz/Debrincat at $5mil with 7/8 yr term. Both those guys have high end offensize skill, but they have physical limitations and have yet to prove anything when playing in meaningful stretch-run or playoff games.

Anyone care to breakdown how their contracts might impact the Hawks salary cap in 2019/20? I've got think adding $10mil + with Cat and Schmaltz puts the Hawks right back into Cap Hell...unless they can move Hossa's $5.5mil

Lets look at it like this...

6Y/6M for Schmaltz IS an over pay.
2Y/4M as bridge IS a huge risk that Schmaltz turns into a 7-8M player and we are priced out.

If Bowman loses him now or even in 2 years and then we have the same problem... he has failed.

If he hands out another high term/high $ contract and he cant support the core adequately top to bottom and we lose again... he has failed.

This is where SB needs to be better. finding contracts that players can live with and help develop the team. Help them buy into the project.

Ideally, you tell Schmaltz here is 4.6 for 5 years (23M) and it works. he would be 26 and still primed for a huge payday then, if he progresses. And in the mean time, its not going to break the bank and you can figure out your cap for that time when you might have to pay him more. Sets the precedent for DCats raise too.

But what incentive does Schmaltz have to take less than 5.5M? or maybe he tells himself give me 6M OR a contract less than 3 years OR I walk. This is where Bowman needs to make it happen. Sell him on why 4.6M/5Y is the way to go for the team.
- gnosox1986

$6x6 is not an overpay based on comparable players of age, production, and games played.

Also, your ideal situation is not how it typically works unless it's a low 2-3 bridge deal. Anything 5 years or more means higher cap hit than a short bridge - more term after that means a lower cap hit. Look at Scheifele - his cap hit was brought down because they opted for a 8 year term.

Wonder if Schmaltz knows there's a lot of chatter on HockeyBuzz about his next contract.

For reals, love the dialogue. I see some good points being brought up. I personally don't have an opinion at this point on what the terms should be.

I don't think he's ever going to get it. He wants his cake and to eat it too. And he wants it to be free and delivered to him. But going back to my original comment on this topic, this is the reason Bowman will never win, not matter what he does.
- HawksHype

I don't understand how giving a player pretty fair market value for his age, games played, and production when compared to other similar players is something outrageous. I hope the deal is similar to what Drouin got but anything in the Saad/Barkov/Landeskog range is market value for Schmaltz.

Seguin now is better than Schmaltz and may always be, but they were real comparable at 21/22. Hell, Seguin hadn't even become good at faceoffs then - was 43.4% the season prior to signing that contract.