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Forums :: Blog World :: Justin Lowe: Response to Seabrook Trade Proposal
Author Message
Antilles
St Louis Blues
Joined: 10.17.2008

May 25 @ 11:33 AM ET
I don’t think there is any reason for the Blackhawks to trade seabrook and retain a few million in salary, which is the equivalent of a decent lower line player, when everyone is speculating that the new CBA will contain at least one compliance buy out. I think that the Hawks May try to unload Seabs if the price is right, but the thought of paying 2-3 million for the next 6 years is too much for Stan to bear when they will likely be able to buy him out next year if need be.

What if they buy out seabrook if there is a compliance buy out and then resign him at league minimum immediately afterwords, is there any precedent for such a move or would it violate the rules of a buy out?

- LaheysBRandy


The CBA doesn't expire for another 4 seasons. The NHLPA has an option to opt out, which would end the current CBA after 2 more seasons. However, compliance buyouts will only happen if the cap is going down. While possible, it seems unlikely that the NHLPA will opt out of the current CBA if the result would be them losing money to a lower cap. So if compliance buyouts are happening, it's probably in 4 years, not 2.
mgriffen
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto
Joined: 02.01.2012

May 25 @ 11:45 AM ET
Is he really that bad now? I know they need to create some cap space, but damn.
BlazinMike
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 05.08.2013

May 25 @ 11:48 AM ET
Last time you couldn't buy a player out and resign them as it wasn't allowed. With the next CBA buyouts could (and should) look very different. It's been my opinion for some time that teams should get some form of a limited buyout option annually before free agency. Nothing crazy that can be abused, but why not let teams pay the player and move on. The player can get a new contract and the team can spend more money on new players. I get that the owners might push back because they want to limit the share of HRR the players are getting, but maybe they could just come up with a limit to the # of buyouts active at any one time or a total buyout allowance annually to give some flexibility.
- breadbag


why would a clean cut of a contract hurt owners in regards to HRR?

Wouldn't a buyout or contract termination system help the owners? If they could cut ties on a bloated deal for an underperforming player, then the player re-enters the market and the owner isn't paying that player anymore, right?
Antilles
St Louis Blues
Joined: 10.17.2008

May 25 @ 11:50 AM ET
Last time you couldn't buy a player out and resign them as it wasn't allowed. With the next CBA buyouts could (and should) look very different. It's been my opinion for some time that teams should get some form of a limited buyout option annually before free agency. Nothing crazy that can be abused, but why not let teams pay the player and move on. The player can get a new contract and the team can spend more money on new players. I get that the owners might push back because they want to limit the share of HRR the players are getting, but maybe they could just come up with a limit to the # of buyouts active at any one time or a total buyout allowance annually to give some flexibility.
- breadbag


Owners aren't going to allow buyout money to be in excess of the 50% players already receive. Players aren't going to allow buyout money being part of their 50% but not count against the cap, because that means every other player gets less money back from escrow to cover the buyout cost. And the majority of GM's aren't going to support compliance buyouts, because it tips competitive balance in favor of teams with more money. Changing the current buyout system to yearly compliance buyouts doesn't benefit the majority on either side of those who will be negotiating over it, so it's difficult to see why they would.
Z3Hawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.04.2017

May 25 @ 11:56 AM ET
>>>Seabrook was never to fleetest of foot, but it's been evident these last couple of years that opposing forwards have targeted him when entering the zone and have done so with high success rates.<<<

He was also mentally checked out for over half the season. Poor decisions all over the ice. Of course he was not alone in that department.

I got tired of the deja vu watching him looking in the net with the puck in it.

- bogiedoc


Your analysis is not fair in the least. For years now Seabrook has been a babysitter for a wide number of new or struggling players. I have made this argument in the past stating that it would be interesting to see what would happen to the great Keith if he wasn’t protected all the time by Hammer? What would happen if Keith actually had to babysit? Well we found out last year - Keith’s head exploded and his game collapsed. He had a MINUS 29. Seabrook somehow had a PLUS rating much of the season and finished at minus 3. Seabrook is not being attacked and beaten - he is just constantly dealing with odd-man situations caused by the careless play of his idiotic partners, who, in fairness, are following Ulf’s idiotic “system.”

It was interesting that at the end of the season Seebs and Keith played together and there was immedietely a professional calmness to both their games.

There were 3 D-Men who should have lead the D last year Keith, Seebs and Murphy and Q and Ulf messed with all 3 of them. There should have been a 4th actually, Kempny but we all know how that went. I believe he is still playing D on a team that shut out the Lightning for 8 straight periods.

Seabrook is still a very good, important player. That does not mean that his contract is not insane because it is.
StLBravesFan
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 07.03.2011

May 25 @ 12:03 PM ET
The CBA doesn't expire for another 4 seasons. The NHLPA has an option to opt out, which would end the current CBA after 2 more seasons. However, compliance buyouts will only happen if the cap is going down. While possible, it seems unlikely that the NHLPA will opt out of the current CBA if the result would be them losing money to a lower cap. So if compliance buyouts are happening, it's probably in 4 years, not 2.
- Antilles


And with Seattle promising a $650MM payday for the 31 owners - not shared with the players - I just think that the league would think several times before causing a CBA trouble in two years.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

May 25 @ 12:03 PM ET
It will be interesting to see how the NHL and the clubs deal with Seattle. I bet they are all planning ahead except The Son of Scott.
- riozzo


Not a big Stan defender, but what did he really lose in the expansion draft? He tossed a contract that no one wanted (Kruger) and lost a 5-6 D (TVR) that many could care less about. What should he have planned for?
Z3Hawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.04.2017

May 25 @ 12:05 PM ET
Seabs stays and will be a valuable 4 for a couple of years and then a 5-6 for the last couple of years on his contract. The young pups will still need someone to provide stability and teach them how to play in the NHL.

On another subject, what the hell is the NHL thinking by blowing off this weekend and not starting the SCF until Monday? People will be having parties, grilling, etc. all weekend. Why not have the NHL on the tube so people have something to watch if they get tired of talking with Aunt Edna.

G1 should be tonight, with G2 on Sunday. 2 great story lines, WASH and Ovie finally make the finals vs. the Vegas expansion rejects in their 1st season.

The NHL is the worst at marketing their sport.

- scottak


No Friday, Saturday or Sunday. It is freakin’ unbelievable! MONDAY! The Caps Series ended on Wednesday. The N in NHL must mean NoBrain.
Iggysbff
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Peter Chiarelli is a fking moron, Calgary, AB
Joined: 07.12.2012

May 25 @ 12:08 PM ET
Last time you couldn't buy a player out and resign them as it wasn't allowed. With the next CBA buyouts could (and should) look very different. It's been my opinion for some time that teams should get some form of a limited buyout option annually before free agency. Nothing crazy that can be abused, but why not let teams pay the player and move on. The player can get a new contract and the team can spend more money on new players. I get that the owners might push back because they want to limit the share of HRR the players are getting, but maybe they could just come up with a limit to the # of buyouts active at any one time or a total buyout allowance annually to give some flexibility.
- breadbag

Next CBA owners are going after guaranteed contracts. Mark my words.
walleyeb1
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Petersburg, IL
Joined: 09.25.2014

May 25 @ 12:30 PM ET
Next CBA owners are going after guaranteed contracts. Mark my words.
- Iggysbff


The NHL will have first crack to opt out, must decide by Sept. 1, 2019. If they decline, the NHLPA can decide to opt out by Sept. 19, 2019.
StLBravesFan
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 07.03.2011

May 25 @ 12:31 PM ET
Next CBA owners are going after guaranteed contracts. Mark my words.
- Iggysbff


Then we can expect to lose another season.

PA will not be willing to give on that. They will point to generally rising attendance and (slowly rising) revenues, perhaps an increasing Looney - but especially the $1 billion plus windfall the owners got - and hold tight on that.

Just my opinion, of course.
riozzo
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Cornwallis Island
Joined: 06.17.2014

May 25 @ 12:40 PM ET
Then we can expect to lose another season.

PA will not be willing to give on that. They will point to generally rising attendance and (slowly rising) revenues, perhaps an increasing Looney - but especially the $1 billion plus windfall the owners got - and hold tight on that.

Just my opinion, of course.

- StLBravesFan

Cant disagree on that
scottak
Location: I am serious. And don't call me Shirley!
Joined: 08.06.2010

May 25 @ 12:49 PM ET
What are NBC’s commitments for the weekend?

I don’t know - but that’s more important than any thought or preferences by the league.

- StLBravesFan

Senior PGA Golf and French Open Tennis
riozzo
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Cornwallis Island
Joined: 06.17.2014

May 25 @ 12:54 PM ET
Senior PGA Golf and French Open Tennis
- scottak

America Ninja Warrior Repeat

I believe the networks tone down programming due to holiday viewership down and smorgasbord of racing.
6628
Joined: 08.24.2009

May 25 @ 1:00 PM ET
Then we can expect to lose another season.

PA will not be willing to give on that. They will point to generally rising attendance and (slowly rising) revenues, perhaps an increasing Looney - but especially the $1 billion plus windfall the owners got - and hold tight on that.

Just my opinion, of course.

- StLBravesFan



Makes a lot of sense
walleyeb1
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Petersburg, IL
Joined: 09.25.2014

May 25 @ 1:00 PM ET
And with Seattle promising a $650MM payday for the 31 owners - not shared with the players - I just think that the league would think several times before causing a CBA trouble in two years.
- StLBravesFan


I really can’t see why the NHLPA would want to pull the plug either. Especially if they think the owners are going after the guaranteed contract. Why wouldn’t they want to just ride it out and keep their guaranteed contracts?
-Doh-
Location: VA
Joined: 10.05.2015

May 25 @ 1:01 PM ET
IMHO even after watching closely Seabs the last two years I do not know how good or bad he is. He has played with virtually every Hawk defender. Most of them were not NHL ready, some were far from being NHL ready. He never knew what they were going to do. They often wandered up ice and floated there while the opponent came back 2 on 1. Or they floated in the Dzone.

Before that he playing with a very good quick puck moving defender (Keith) for several years and performed very well. They liked playing with each other and they knew what the other was going to do.

If Seabs were paired with a good quick puck moving defender now and they were allowed to play together night in and night out for a few months in a row I think Seabs could be a decent 2nd pairing defender, that kills penalties, blocks shots, plays with some physicality, gets some PP time on the Hawks or some other team. I think he can do that for a few more years.

His perceived lack of enthusiasm, effort, focus, speed could be related to who he has played with and how he has been used. Add to that a new system with Ulfie.

Maybe a change of scenery would do him good.

Don't get me wrong...... I am not justifying the $ or the length of contract in any way shape or form.
-Doh-
Location: VA
Joined: 10.05.2015

May 25 @ 1:05 PM ET
I really can’t see why the NHLPA would want to pull the plug either. Especially if they think the owners are going after the guaranteed contract. Why wouldn’t they want to just ride it out and keep their guaranteed contracts?
- walleyeb1


The issue is the salary cap and competitiveness in the league. If the wealthy teams with high revenue streams can buy out contracts they can overpay for players and then if things do not work out they just buyout the contract. The poorer teams could not or would not do that and it would be hard for them to remain competitive.

Even though the Hawks are a wealthy team I like a hard cap with consequences. I think it is in the best interest of the league in general.
BlackhawkMike
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 06.30.2011

May 25 @ 1:11 PM ET
Would NHL think about playing with scrubs if they go on strike like the NFL did?
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

May 25 @ 1:27 PM ET
IMHO even after watching closely Seabs the last two years I do not know how good or bad he is. He has played with virtually every Hawk defender. Most of them were not NHL ready, some were far from being NHL ready. He never knew what they were going to do. They often wandered up ice and floated there while the opponent came back 2 on 1. Or they floated in the Dzone.

Before that he playing with a very good quick puck moving defender (Keith) for several years and performed very well. They liked playing with each other and they knew what the other was going to do.

If Seabs were paired with a good quick puck moving defender now and they were allowed to play together night in and night out for a few months in a row I think Seabs could be a decent 2nd pairing defender, that kills penalties, blocks shots, plays with some physicality, gets some PP time on the Hawks or some other team. I think he can do that for a few more years.

His perceived lack of enthusiasm, effort, focus, speed could be related to who he has played with and how he has been used. Add to that a new system with Ulfie.

Maybe a change of scenery would do him good.

Don't get me wrong...... I am not justifying the $ or the length of contract in any way shape or form.

- -Doh-


Seabs and Gustafson had a bit of an extended look and I thought played decent together. I wouldn't mind that as a 2-3 line, as long as they stick them together for the long haul so that they can get more comfortable with each other.

They need to figure out the pairs early and get everyone on the same page.

With what they currently have, I wouldn't be terribly mad about the following:
Keith - Murphy
Seabs - Gus
Forsling - Rutta

I liked what Hillman brought for the few games he was there (and I think we need more of it), but I'm not sure if he is quite ready for the big show. Obviously you would like to get a significant upgrade via FA or trade, but I have this strange feeling they aren't going to do much on the back end.
StutzBlackhawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: LaGrange, IL
Joined: 10.31.2016

May 25 @ 1:27 PM ET
Kempny couldn't figure out the Hawks defense system, and was traded. So, maybe the Hawks system needs to change to fit the strength of the players they have ? Just ask'n
walleyeb1
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Petersburg, IL
Joined: 09.25.2014

May 25 @ 1:43 PM ET
Kempny couldn't figure out the Hawks defense system, and was traded. So, maybe the Hawks system needs to change to fit the strength of the players they have ? Just ask'n
- StutzBlackhawk


What system, I’m not sure they have a system???
chuckdahammer
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 11.01.2016

May 25 @ 1:48 PM ET
Kempny couldn't figure out the Hawks defense system, and was traded. So, maybe the Hawks system needs to change to fit the strength of the players they have ? Just ask'n
- StutzBlackhawk





I AGREE WITH YOU ! Granted,yes, Seabs was never that fast and has lost step, but he is not that old. Just look at defensemen around the league his age .... how do they remain productive ??? The trading of Kempney and his good play in the playoffs is certainly a red flag on the Hawks coaches and system they play. Kempney has nice all around game ... not great at one thing ... but at least average to above average at many aspects of his game. The only inconistencies with him as a Hawk, was his playing time. Dion Phauneuf and Brett Burns, I believe are Seabs age. You mean Seabs play can't be somewhere in between those two players
Also I believe that Gary Suter is the same age as Seabs. None of these defensemen have blazing speed but Seabs should not be worse than any of these players. YES - CHECK SYSTEM CAREFULLY PLEASE
riozzo
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Cornwallis Island
Joined: 06.17.2014

May 25 @ 1:54 PM ET
What system, I’m not sure they have a system???
- walleyeb1

Dump puck in o-zone, aggressively pinch and slide on stomach trying to stop breakaway.

Or

Just turn the puck over in the slot
Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 10.31.2017

May 25 @ 1:57 PM ET
Kempny couldn't figure out the Hawks defense system, and was traded. So, maybe the Hawks system needs to change to fit the strength of the players they have ? Just ask'n
- StutzBlackhawk


This is possible.

I will touch on this a little more in an upcoming blog, but wanted to say one thing; all of this "Ulf doesn't know how to coach" narrative isn't completely fair.

I am not fully defending him but based on what I've heard, he was brought in as the perceived perfect fit because:

1) his methodology of how a "new age" defenceman needs to play, which is a really mobile and really quick at moving the puck forward to create a quick strike, always pressing offensive attack.

2) The above style of defence was identified by the Blackhawks management as a necessary change to become a faster team to keep up with the way the of the "new NHL". Ulf preached this with success in the minors and they wanted him to work with the dmen and Q to adjust their style.

3) Quenneville's relationship and history with Ulf kept him happy, while Stan went out and grabbed Don Granato to sit upstairs and evaluate, as well as work with younger players during practice and off the ice.


This move and adjustment didn't work out IMO due to:

* Defence Personnel - the skillset to make this change wasn't completely there and therefore was putting a lot of players out of their comfort zone on how to play "their" game (like Connor Murphy)

* Forward Personnel - the skillset upfront to accept these passes and work as a cohesive unit looked off all year.

* Defence of 8 - these guys were asked to do a lot and many didn't even know the "old" system, let alone this new style they were being asked to play. This made some defenders play een more tentatively then the system needed them to be because they were afraid to make a mistake. Hence, all of this Franson talk and watching Kempny succeed now.

* Quenneville's Ultimate Say - you could see how this plan to move the puck forward extremely quick and have your D being very aggressive worked... for game #1 vs. the Penguins. They caught them off guard and it was impressive to watch.

Then, when things went sideways, go back and watch how Q and the coaches reverted more back to the old style which had his defencemen hold on to the puck and try to play more of a safer possession style that has been effective in the past (resulting in Stanley Cup wins).

Sorry... this post could have been a blog in it's own, but just wanted to relay on some information on the whole Ulf and defence chatter.






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