Yes, Marian Hossa clearly sucked before he got to play with Crosby.

Really dude??? Guy was a stud at both ends of the ice way before he went to Pittsburgh.
- jmatchett383

Hossa was a TDL rental and left after the postseason. Kunitz was an underrated all around player. Hornqvist was a good winger with elite front net play. Even Dupuis was a quality balanced player. Malkin is the one that definitely got shortchanged on winger quality over his career. Other than Neal, he never got any extended quality linemates.

Really dude??? (Hossa) was a stud at both ends of the ice way before he went to Pittsburgh.
- jmatchett383

Oh yeah? Then why did we give up a 1st round pick and the player we just drafted in the 1st round for Hossa as a rental.

Wait a minute, that makes your case. RATS!

Winning the Cup is the goal for every team. But when comparing individual players, Cup wins shouldn't really matter.

And for those who said Playoff MVP > Season MVP. Just look at some of the previous winners. Justin friggin Williams won a Conn Smythe. Hart Trophys are reserved for the best of the best. As much as I hate to say it, Hasek was a better goalie than Roy.

As for the question being asked, I think they are very similar. The best player in the league and a top-5 player, vs the best player in the league and a top-5 player. You can't directly compare point totals because it's a higher scoring era now than it was 10-15 years ago.

Peak McDavid > Peak Crosby
Peak Malkin > Peak Draisaitl

McDavid is the superior offensive player by a fair bit even when adjusting for era. Crosby's defense, while better than McDavid's, has always been a bit overrated, and in any case he didn't really develop into a consistently well-rounded defensive player until after his most dominant years were behind him. Crosby may well wind up with the better career overall, depending on how McDavid ages, but that wasn't what the question asked. It only asked which player was better in his prime, and that's McDavid.

For Malkin/Draisaitl, adjusted offensive numbers are very close. But Malkin did it in fewer minutes, with a lower percentage of those minutes shared with the 1A star, and was probably a little better defensively.

Overall I take Edmonton's duo. But it's arguable.

Lol this is a results based game !! Individual achievements are not the results any owner or team give a poop about its cups !! And to say a couple guys who play an individual game in a team sport up against a couple guys that brought multiple champions to theirs are better talents is just plain STUPID

I'm always astounded at how many people equate team success with individual excellence.

I'm always astounded at how many people equate team success with individual excellence.
- Sven22

Based on this logic, are peak Kane + Toews better than McDavid + Draisaitl. You know, because Cups.

What if Ray Bourque retired as a Bruin? Would that make his career less impressive because he didn't win a Cup?

How about if the Wings pulled the trigger on trading Yzerman to Ottawa. Is he a loser for not winning anything?

This is just laughable. For most of McDavid's career, the roster has been horrible. Here, play with Puljujarvi and Josh Archibald. Goalies have been Koskinen, Mike Smith, the defense has been Nurse playing over his head with a bunch of garbage. Finally after bringing in Kane, Hyman, Ceci, and now Ekholm there is a legit supporting cast to contend. But even then, you have $25M Jack Campbell on the bench and a rookie in net. So whether they win or lose should not fall solely on McDavid's shoulders.

As I said, in 50 years this era will be defined by Gretzky-Lemiuex-McDavid. Nobody else is even close.

Better at what. Winning cups or winning scoring races?

Winning the Cup is the goal for every team. But when comparing individual players, Cup wins shouldn't really matter.

And for those who said Playoff MVP > Season MVP. Just look at some of the previous winners. Justin friggin Williams won a Conn Smythe. Hart Trophys are reserved for the best of the best. As much as I hate to say it, Hasek was a better goalie than Roy.

As for the question being asked, I think they are very similar. The best player in the league and a top-5 player, vs the best player in the league and a top-5 player. You can't directly compare point totals because it's a higher scoring era now than it was 10-15 years ago.
- geoff_182

Arguably the most ridiculous submission in hockeybuzz history.

Lol this is a results based game !! Individual achievements are not the results any owner or team give a poop about its cups !! And to say a couple guys who play an individual game in a team sport up against a couple guys that brought multiple champions to theirs are better talents is just plain STUPID
- Hockeyfan4life14

Jarome Iginla is a bum because he never won a Cup.

Another factor is Malkin and Draisaitl play different positions. Makes it harder to compare. If you put Draisaitl on the wing with Crosby or Malkin their entire career what would that look like? It's all interesting baber shop talk, for sure.

Again, winning Cups and playoff MVPs (Malkin 1, Crosby 2) is all anyone should care about. We can't dismiss players who never won but again, ask anyone of those people you single out if they'd rather have less personal accolades and win a single Cup, none of them would hesitate.
- coohill

I totally agree. While it is fair to do a direct comparison between Crosby and McDavid it is not accurate to do a comparison between Malkin and Draisaitl. Who is the better center? Who is the better wing? (those are rhetorical questions)

Also, Crosby never had a winger as good as Draisaitl. Likewise, the Oilers never had a 2C as good as Geno. The result is that the Pens (in the Crosby era at least) never had a top line as good as the McDavid/Draisaitl line. Likewise, the Oilers so far have never had a second line as good as nearly all of Geno's lines. I will take two good lines over one super line any day. Throw in a reliable goalie and a third line that occasionally scores and that is how you win Cups.

Most comparisons in hockey are BS. For example, while every reasonable analysis would say that Brodeur is vastly better than MAF imagine if they had switched teams, with Brodeur playing behind some of the run and gun/porous defensive teams of the Pens throughout most of the Crosby era and MAF playing behind some of the "brick wall" defenses of the Devils of the late 90's/early 2000's that sucked the life out of the game. Their numbers would look quite different and the question of who is better might not be as obvious. Likewise, imagine if Lemieux had played on the all-star lineups of the Oilers of the 80's (being protected by McSorley) while Gretsky played on mostly really bad Pens teams of the 80's, without any serious protection and without any reliable wingers until the 90's. Hockey is a team sport and it is very difficult to come up with a fair evaluation of players apart from the team they are on.

I appreciate the talent of all of the players, I really do but sid is hands down the best player in this discussion. Even from a numbers perspective. Ovechkin has played in 1,336 games and has 1,472 points. Sid has played in 1,175 games and has 1,490 points. So he has played 161 less games than Ovi and has 18 more points. He has 81 points this season. When he scores his next point, that will mean he has been a point per game player for 18 consecutive seasons, passing gordie howe. Only one player had 19 consecutive seasons of at least a point per game.

Lets also not forget that he didnt play after january of the 2010-11 season, not playing in 41 games that year and only played in 22 games the following season due to concussions. That would be sid at age 23-25. Can you imagine the #s with a healthy Sid with geno at that age?

And no matter what, the ultimate prize is the cup.

Based on this logic, are peak Kane + Toews better than McDavid + Draisaitl. You know, because Cups.

What if Ray Bourque retired as a Bruin? Would that make his career less impressive because he didn't win a Cup?

How about if the Wings pulled the trigger on trading Yzerman to Ottawa. Is he a loser for not winning anything?

This is just laughable. For most of McDavid's career, the roster has been horrible. Here, play with Puljujarvi and Josh Archibald. Goalies have been Koskinen, Mike Smith, the defense has been Nurse playing over his head with a bunch of garbage. Finally after bringing in Kane, Hyman, Ceci, and now Ekholm there is a legit supporting cast to contend. But even then, you have $25M Jack Campbell on the bench and a rookie in net. So whether they win or lose should not fall solely on McDavid's shoulders.

As I said, in 50 years this era will be defined by Gretzky-Lemiuex-McDavid. Nobody else is even close.
- Cooleus

You realize I agree with you, right? Not sure if you misread what I wrote or you're just expanding on it.

Based on this logic, are peak Kane + Toews better than McDavid + Draisaitl. You know, because Cups.

As I said, in 50 years this era will be defined by Gretzky-LemiEUx-McDavid. Nobody else is even close.
- Cooleus

Fair or not, team accomplishments will ALWAYS weigh heavily into player perceptions. Hence why Kane and especially Toews are viewed so favorably. And also why McDavid and Draisaitl are likely to be overlooked 50 years from now compared to Crosby and Malkin.

Lol this is a results based game !! Individual achievements are not the results any owner or team give a poop about its cups !! And to say a couple guys who play an individual game in a team sport up against a couple guys that brought multiple champions to theirs are better talents is just plain STUPID
- Hockeyfan4life14

Of course teams and fans would rather win Cups than individual awards. That's why you'd rather have a team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Franzen, Kronwall, and a strong bottom six than a team with McDavid, Draisaitl, a few okay supporting players and a bunch of bums. That still doesn't make Datsyuk "better" than McDavid. Star players are not solely responsible for the success or failure of their teams.

The question isn't whether the 2023 Oilers or the 2009 Penguins are the better team. Obviously it's the 2009 Pens. It's whether prime McDavid/Draisaitl are better than prime Crosby/Malkin. It is staggering to me how many people refuse to accept that those are very different questions.

Of course teams and fans would rather win Cups than individual awards. That's why you'd rather have a team with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Franzen, Kronwall, and a strong bottom six than a team with McDavid, Draisaitl, a few okay supporting players and a bunch of bums. That still doesn't make Datsyuk "better" than McDavid. Star players are not solely responsible for the success or failure of their teams.

The question isn't whether the 2023 Oilers or the 2009 Penguins are the better team. Obviously it's the 2009 Pens. It's whether prime McDavid/Draisaitl are better than prime Crosby/Malkin. It is staggering to me how many people refuse to accept that those are very different questions.
- Sven22

You don’t think McD leaving the zone too early consistently during his career impacts his integrity as a hockey player and his leadership as well?

You don’t think others on the team would follow his lead in that regard?

When he commits to winning or learns how to win they will. Crosby learned that at a much younger age and is a much better leader. He just is. For the record, I despise Crosby and the pens.

Do you want pts or cups?

You don’t think McD leaving the zone too early consistently during his career impacts his integrity as a hockey player and his leadership as well?

You don’t think others on the team would follow his lead in that regard?

When he commits to winning or learns how to win they will. Crosby learned that at a much younger age and is a much better leader. He just is. For the record, I despise Crosby and the pens.

Do you want pts or cups?
- Joe Nardone

Not mutually exclusive. TOI that McDrai has to play to keep EDM competitive is insane. Letang was an elite dman for years. Far superior to anyone McDrai have ever had. Fleury/Murray combined to provide elite goaltending in the back to back SCs. Also better than anything McDrai have had. Over the course of their careers, I don't see much chance of McDavid and Draisaitl being considered in the same vein given the team success and longevity of Crosby and Malkin. But comparing relative career peaks, they definitely have a case.

One of the biggest problems is that we were robbed of Crosby in his prime for a number of years due to concussions.

You don’t think McD leaving the zone too early consistently during his career impacts his integrity as a hockey player and his leadership as well?

You don’t think others on the team would follow his lead in that regard?

When he commits to winning or learns how to win they will. Crosby learned that at a much younger age and is a much better leader. He just is. For the record, I despise Crosby and the pens.

Do you want pts or cups?
- Joe Nardone

Fun fact: Crosby cheated on defensive duties for offense plenty in his heyday.

People act like Crosby is this magnificent two way force when he isn't and never has been. His defensive impacts for most of his career have been average to below average. Datsyuk and Bergeron, among others, were light years better and more responsible defensively. That's not a knock on Crosby--he was clearly the best player in the league for much of his 20s--but his reputation for being a great or even very good defensive forward, especially early in his career, is greatly overblown.

People also act like McDavid is totally selfish and one dimensional, and that's also not remotely true for the player he is today. Certainly around 2017-19 the Oilers gave up a ton of chances against with McDavid on the ice, but that just isn't the case anymore.

If you want a genuine example of a star player who racks up points but also hurts his team a lot by playing reprehensible, unacceptably terrible defense, you want Patrick Kane. That somehow didn't stop him from winning 3 Cups, incidentally. I suspect some guys named Toews, Keith, Hossa, and a few others might have had something to do with it.

Edmonton significantly outchances and outscores their opponents with McDavid on the ice. No, he's not an elite defensive forward like a Bergeron, but he is far from a liability and Edmonton blows the doors off their opponents when he's on the ice.

But McDavid can't do anything about the 38 minutes per night he's not on the ice, and it's not his fault if the team surrounding him can't pull their own weight when he's on the bench. The argument that his teammates are somehow dogging it on D due to his "bad example" and playing worse as a result is so preposterous it's not worth dignifying.

According to the Logic of many, Claude Lemieux is Better than Jerome Iginla because he won 4 cups and Iggy never won one.

According to the Logic of many, Claude Lemieux is Better than Jerome Iginla because he won 4 cups and Iggy never won one.
- HonkyTonkMan

Chris Osgood was better than Ed Belfour, who was only as good as Nikolai Kahbibulin.

I totally agree. While it is fair to do a direct comparison between Crosby and McDavid it is not accurate to do a comparison between Malkin and Draisaitl. Who is the better center? Who is the better wing? (those are rhetorical questions)

Also, Crosby never had a winger as good as Draisaitl. Likewise, the Oilers never had a 2C as good as Geno. The result is that the Pens (in the Crosby era at least) never had a top line as good as the McDavid/Draisaitl line. Likewise, the Oilers so far have never had a second line as good as nearly all of Geno's lines. I will take two good lines over one super line any day. Throw in a reliable goalie and a third line that occasionally scores and that is how you win Cups.

Most comparisons in hockey are BS. For example, while every reasonable analysis would say that Brodeur is vastly better than MAF imagine if they had switched teams, with Brodeur playing behind some of the run and gun/porous defensive teams of the Pens throughout most of the Crosby era and MAF playing behind some of the "brick wall" defenses of the Devils of the late 90's/early 2000's that sucked the life out of the game. Their numbers would look quite different and the question of who is better might not be as obvious. Likewise, imagine if Lemieux had played on the all-star lineups of the Oilers of the 80's (being protected by McSorley) while Gretsky played on mostly really bad Pens teams of the 80's, without any serious protection and without any reliable wingers until the 90's. Hockey is a team sport and it is very difficult to come up with a fair evaluation of players apart from the team they are on.
- PghPens668771

wow! bang on. (please takeover this website)

Obviously McDavid and Draisaitl are better. Not even a debate.

But Crosby/Malkin had a better supporting cast, and therefore playoff success. The biggest difference being goaltending over the years.

Casual fans and media overrate Cups. Some guys spend their career on weaker teams or run into bad luck in the playoffs. That's through no fault of their own. Shouldn't diminish their achievements. Is Marcel Dionne a loser? Iginla? Thornton? Hawerchuk? Big losers. But Patrick Maroon is a winner.
- Cooleus

Winners win cups. Losers get golf trips. It's simple. Don't make it all woke by making up excuses for losers.

Winners win cups. Losers get golf trips. It's simple. Don't make it all woke by making up excuses for losers.
- PDO-Speedwagon

Source?

Winners win cups. Losers get golf trips. It's simple. Don't make it all woke by making up excuses for losers.
- PDO-Speedwagon