It wasn’t a trade but this article reminds me of when we signed Lecavalier. He was alright that first year but had already started his decline. That whole situation seemed awkward towards the end.

Yeah, that was a pretty awful trade... he also had:

- Justin Williams for a few games of Danny Markov
- Dennis Seidenberg for gives-zero-(frank)s Petr Nedved
- Vinny Prospal for Alex Daigle
- Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison
- Primeau gave us that 5OT goal, but trading Brindy away was so wrong (even if he had beef w/ 88)
- Wasting a truckload of top-90 picks on dudes like Denis Gauthier, Todd Fedoruk, Eric Chouinard, Jiri Dopita, Dean McAmmond, Dave Babych and Pat Falloon over the years
- Trading for Billy Tibbetts, gross


But he did make some really nice trades, like:

- Getting all 4 1st-rounders from the Gratton OS (Gagne, Williams) back for just Renberg + Dykhuis
- Somehow getting Tampa to give up the 4th-overall pick for Ruslan Fedotenko,
- Getting a top-pair puck-moving dman back for Lindros' rights (Kim Johnsson),
- Turning Daymond Langkow into two top-60 picks, one which turned into Jeff Carter
- And of course, the Mark Recchi for Rico and LeClair deal.



He was a good GM when the league was all about size and toughness and he could spend as much $ as he wanted to cover his ass on his constant missteps. There's zero chance he would succeed in the salary cap era tho. And he definitely missed the boat on the rule changes and transition to a more open/skill game. And he never really prioritized goaltending at the end of the day.
- Tomahawk

I remember it was said that it seemed like they were always trying to win last years Stanley Cup.

meh

Ahh , the 1st from Tampa was for the Ukranian winger Ruslan Fedotenko
- RajaAmpat

Fedotenko killed them in the 04 ECF


Speaking of stupid trades. Clarke traded Eric Weinrich and or Chris Therian to give them a chance to play becasue they had "too many D men". As fate is an ironic whore, their D was decimated going into the Tampa series and cost them their best shot at a Cup since 75

*that and them choking against the Panters in the second round in '96*

Yeah, that was a pretty awful trade... he also had:

- Justin Williams for a few games of Danny Markov
- Dennis Seidenberg for gives-zero-(frank)s Petr Nedved
- Vinny Prospal for Alex Daigle
- Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison
- Primeau gave us that 5OT goal, but trading Brindy away was so wrong (even if he had beef w/ 88)
- Wasting a truckload of top-90 picks on dudes like Denis Gauthier, Todd Fedoruk, Eric Chouinard, Jiri Dopita, Dean McAmmond, Dave Babych and Pat Falloon over the years
- Trading for Billy Tibbetts, gross


But he did make some really nice trades, like:

- Getting all 4 1st-rounders from the Gratton OS (Gagne, Williams) back for just Renberg + Dykhuis
- Somehow getting Tampa to give up the 4th-overall pick for Ruslan Fedotenko,
- Getting a top-pair puck-moving dman back for Lindros' rights (Kim Johnsson),
- Turning Daymond Langkow into two top-60 picks, one which turned into Jeff Carter
- And of course, the Mark Recchi for Rico and LeClair deal.



He was a good GM when the league was all about size and toughness and he could spend as much $ as he wanted to cover his ass on his constant missteps. There's zero chance he would succeed in the salary cap era tho. And he definitely missed the boat on the rule changes and transition to a more open/skill game. And he never really prioritized goaltending at the end of the day.
- Tomahawk

And to this day Clarke thinks it’s appropriate to throw shade at current GM’s like Hextall.

As this discouraging off-season drags on, I still can’t help but start to feel excited for the season to begin. I’m ready to watch some flyers hockey, even though it may be painful at times.
- funmaster18

We are all going to have to hang with Spicolli to make it through the season

Yeah, that was a pretty awful trade... he also had:

- Justin Williams for a few games of Danny Markov
- Dennis Seidenberg for gives-zero-(frank)s Petr Nedved
- Vinny Prospal for Alex Daigle
- Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison
- Primeau gave us that 5OT goal, but trading Brindy away was so wrong (even if he had beef w/ 88)
- Wasting a truckload of top-90 picks on dudes like Denis Gauthier, Todd Fedoruk, Eric Chouinard, Jiri Dopita, Dean McAmmond, Dave Babych and Pat Falloon over the years
- Trading for Billy Tibbetts, gross


But he did make some really nice trades, like:

- Getting all 4 1st-rounders from the Gratton OS (Gagne, Williams) back for just Renberg + Dykhuis
- Somehow getting Tampa to give up the 4th-overall pick for Ruslan Fedotenko,
- Getting a top-pair puck-moving dman back for Lindros' rights (Kim Johnsson),
- Turning Daymond Langkow into two top-60 picks, one which turned into Jeff Carter
- And of course, the Mark Recchi for Rico and LeClair deal.



He was a good GM when the league was all about size and toughness and he could spend as much $ as he wanted to cover his ass on his constant missteps. There's zero chance he would succeed in the salary cap era tho. And he definitely missed the boat on the rule changes and transition to a more open/skill game. And he never really prioritized goaltending at the end of the day.
- Tomahawk

Flyers do not sniff the ECF without trading jw - for dm -- I hate how this board never remembers this - also the lockout derailed dm - what could have been

rf killed us in the same series - and IIRC - scored the GWG against the flames?

It wasn’t a trade but this article reminds me of when we signed Lecavalier. He was alright that first year but had already started his decline. That whole situation seemed awkward towards the end.
- dmleip

I know many will disagree with me because 90% of the people on this board argue hindsight instead of looking at the organization’s current state at that time. I didn’t think Vinny was a bad signing. I still don’t. I think Vinny was a “nice try”. The Flyers had a team they felt was ready to contend or continue to try to contend. Giroux was a top ten center at that time. We had Voracek, Hartnell, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier, Timonen, Coburn. We actually had a decent number 1 goalie in Steve Mason. The mindset behind signing Vinny was to fill in for Danny Briere who was in an even worse decline. We brought in Mark Streit and Ray Emery. It seemed fair to go for it. In my opinion firing Peter Laviolette was the mistake. By doing so Craig Berube took over and Vinny became a victim of a new vision he didn’t fit into. Over time I think we learned most of the roster didn’t fit Berube’s vision as Berube alienated Scott Hartnell and from there we began to bring in scrubs.

I know many will disagree with me because 90% of the people on this board argue hindsight instead of looking at the organization’s current state at that time. I didn’t think Vinny was a bad signing. I still don’t. I think Vinny was a “nice try”. The Flyers had a team they felt was ready to contend or continue to try to contend. Giroux was a top team center at that time. We had Voracek, Hartnell, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier, Timonen, Coburn. We actually had a decent number 1 goalie in Steve Mason. The mindset behind signing Vinny was to fill in for Danny Briere who was in an even worse decline. We brought in Streit and Ray Emery. It seemed fair to go for it. In my opinion firing Peter Laviolette was the mistake. By doing so Craig Berube took over and Vinny became a victim of a new vision he didn’t fit in. Over time I think we learned most of the roster didn’t fit Berube’s vision as Berube alienated Scott Hartnell and from there we began to bring in scrubs.
- SuperSchennBros

Money and term were the issues -- if it was a one or two-year deal at 3M per -- then I would agree

Money and term were the issues -- if it was a one or two-year deal at 3M per -- then I would agree
- corduroy

Vinny was what? 4.25 Million for 5 years? Seems fair to me considering he was a really good player his entire career in Tampa.

Do you think Kevin Hayes at 7.14 million for 7 or 8 seasons is a good deal? Because I’m not hearing nearly enough complaining about that nonsense.

More off ice than on but there can be a one-on-one on ice part at times. Mostly, though, it's about establishing a person rapport. Teaching them about the day to day of being a pro. Being a confidant. Observing their play and making suggestions.
- bmeltzer

Ok that just explained a lot about the Flyers past prospects.

Vinny was what? 4.25 Million for 5 years? Seems fair to me considering he was a really good player his entire career in Tampa.

Do you think Kevin Hayes at 7.14 million for 7 or 8 seasons is a good deal? Because I’m not hearing nearly enough complaining about that nonsense.
- SuperSchennBros

I thought at the time of the Hayes contract that the cap was a bit high, but it was the term I was furious with. Currently I still feel the same way.

Nothing worse than hearing someone justify a crappy contract because of "demand". Well the Flyers need to learn to walk away when demand is too high. They also need to learn how to pay players according to the balance of their past accomplishments and what they can provide during the full term of the contract, not just future hope.

I thought at the time of the Hayes contract that the cap was a bit high, but it was the term I was furious with. Currently I still feel the same way.

Nothing worse than hearing someone justify a crappy contract because of "demand". Well the Flyers need to learn to walk away when demand is too high. They also need to learn how to pay players according to the balance of their past accomplishments and what they can provide during the full term of the contract, not just future hope.
- Glak18

Absolutely. This Hayes contract dwarfs the LeCavalier contract and yet people still complain about Vinny more and JvR more. In theory Hayes offers more but in terms of actual Execution, Hayes isn’t this incredible two way center I was sold he was going to be.

Fedotenko killed them in the 04 ECF


Speaking of stupid trades. Clarke traded Eric Weinrich and or Chris Therian to give them a chance to play becasue they had "too many D men". As fate is an ironic whore, their D was decimated going into the Tampa series and cost them their best shot at a Cup since 75

*that and them choking against the Panters in the second round in '96*
- THE BLACK HAND

Reality: Gary Bettman told all teams that a lockout and a salary cap were coming and strongly recommended that, if they added players at the deadline, they should subtract the equivalent amount in salary .

Ron Ryan instructed Clarke to comply and he did, over his objection.

It's in Flyers at 50.

Flyers do not sniff the ECF without trading jw - for dm -- I hate how this board never remembers this - also the lockout derailed dm - what could have been

rf killed us in the same series - and IIRC - scored the GWG against the flames?
- corduroy

Good points.

In Clarke's defense, Markov was pretty highly regarded at the time, but still... a kid like JWill shouldn't have been sacrificed for short-term gain.

Flyers do not sniff the ECF without trading jw - for dm -- I hate how this board never remembers this - also the lockout derailed dm - what could have been.
- corduroy

Exactly. Also Williams had been rather injury prone up to that point in his career and wasn't a favorite of Hitch. Flyers needed another 20-min D but were deep at forward.

Reality: Gary Bettman told all teams that a lockout and a salary cap were coming and strongly recommended that, if they added players at the deadline, they should subtract the equivalent amount in salary .

Ron Ryan instructed Clarke to comply and he did, over his objection.

It's in Flyers at 50.
- bmeltzer

This actually makes it worse

Vinny was what? 4.25 Million for 5 years? Seems fair to me considering he was a really good player his entire career in Tampa.

Do you think Kevin Hayes at 7.14 million for 7 or 8 seasons is a good deal? Because I’m not hearing nearly enough complaining about that nonsense.
- SuperSchennBros

Remember, the salary cap was ~$64M when Vinny signed. Vinny was ~7% of the salary cap then. Hayes was ~8% of the cap in 19-20. And Vinny was already 33-yo, with marked signs of decline in his skating and ES play going back a couple of seasons. His underlying numbers were awful. A smarter team wouldn't have touched him with a 10-foot pole.

Hayes was a terrible deal too, but at least in his case they were getting some prime years in the deal, as opposed to a total retirement contract.

Good points.

In Clarke's defense, Markov was pretty highly regarded at the time, but still... a kid like JWill shouldn't have been sacrificed for short-term gain.
- Tomahawk

Clarke traded Justin Williams for Danny Markov and then that same summer traded Markov to Nashville.

Fast forward to today throws stones of Hextall trading Schenn after drafting Patrick. Now, anyone who knows me, knows I hated the Schenn deal but let’s get real here. Bob Clarke has no self awareness.

Remember, the salary cap was ~$64M when Vinny signed. Vinny was ~7% of the salary cap then. Hayes was ~8% of the cap in 19-20. And Vinny was already 33-yo, with marked signs of decline in his skating and ES play going back a couple of seasons. His underlying numbers were awful. A smarter team wouldn't have touched him with a 10-foot pole.

Hayes was a terrible deal too, but at least in his case they were getting some prime years in the deal, as opposed to a total retirement contract.
- Tomahawk

I’m pretty sure we out dumbed the dumber teams because Vinny had other offers. I’m just making the point, I understand why we signed him. Briere out (who was looking worse then Vinny) and Vinny in.

Yeah, that was a pretty awful trade... he also had:

- Justin Williams for a few games of Danny Markov
- Dennis Seidenberg for gives-zero-(frank)s Petr Nedved
- Vinny Prospal for Alex Daigle
- Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison
- Primeau gave us that 5OT goal, but trading Brindy away was so wrong (even if he had beef w/ 88)
- Wasting a truckload of top-90 picks on dudes like Denis Gauthier, Todd Fedoruk, Eric Chouinard, Jiri Dopita, Dean McAmmond, Dave Babych and Pat Falloon over the years
- Trading for Billy Tibbetts, gross


But he did make some really nice trades, like:

- Getting all 4 1st-rounders from the Gratton OS (Gagne, Williams) back for just Renberg + Dykhuis
- Somehow getting Tampa to give up the 4th-overall pick for Ruslan Fedotenko,
- Getting a top-pair puck-moving dman back for Lindros' rights (Kim Johnsson),
- Turning Daymond Langkow into two top-60 picks, one which turned into Jeff Carter
- And of course, the Mark Recchi for Rico and LeClair deal.



He was a good GM when the league was all about size and toughness and he could spend as much $ as he wanted to cover his ass on his constant missteps. There's zero chance he would succeed in the salary cap era tho. And he definitely missed the boat on the rule changes and transition to a more open/skill game. And he never really prioritized goaltending at the end of the day.
- Tomahawk

I did not mean that post as a Clarke insult. It was more in response to Bill asking about trades we expected big things from, but fizzled.
I do however agree with all that you wrote, and am one of the minority that loved it when Clarke said to Lindros "If you want to be paid like the best player in the game, play like the best player in the game". I am also firmly in the majority in thinking that Tibbetts in a Flyers jersey is indefensible.

“ There's zero chance he would succeed in the salary cap era tho. And he definitely missed the boat on the rule changes and transition to a more open/skill game.”

No move epitomized Clarke failing to recognize the league wide shift more than the Mike Rathje and Derian Hatcher signings. Even then, I remember the Rathje signing seeming to be out of place…the man simply couldn’t stay healthy and it was painfully obvious that his skating couldn’t keep pace with most forwards….a player built for a bygone era.

Vinny was what? 4.25 Million for 5 years? Seems fair to me considering he was a really good player his entire career in Tampa.

Do you think Kevin Hayes at 7.14 million for 7 or 8 seasons is a good deal? Because I’m not hearing nearly enough complaining about that nonsense.
- SuperSchennBros

Trust me I complained about Hayes from the time chuckles traded for his rights.

Thanks Bill, almost sounds like a guidance counselor.
- MBFlyerfan

The whole “development” thing is a myth. It’s 90% on the player.

If the Flyers could find takers for JVR, Hayes, Ellis and Coots all in the world would be good again! Man those are all AWFUL contracts! FIRE CHUCK!! Oh, and FIRE HEXY for the JVR signing! Thanks!