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Forums :: Blog World :: Theo Fox: Jaws of Defeat
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pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 3:12 PM ET
Yeah, what did that crew ever do? Good Lord.....
- mohel


- While winning, failed to stock the cupboard with talented prospects in anticipation of the inevitable dismantling and decline of The Core
- Didn't address seeming lack of development in their AHL affiliate
- Switched strategies seemingly annually starting in 2016, which makes it not really a "strategy" - could never really articulate the plan, preferring instead to pump up certain players as the "answer"
- Painted selves into a cap corner repeatedly, losing top prospects in salary dumps
- Traded away top talent in fear of upcoming negotiations going South before even attempting those negotiations
- And, like that, negotiated seemingly against themselves, offering out-of-market contract terms and conditions to either declining or questionable talent, some before they'd even stepped foot on Hawks' ice
- Tried multiple reclamation projects, none of which have worked out as hoped
- and repeatedly displayed the hubris that led to them thinking they were so much smarter than the other coaches and GMs in those reclamation projects trades in their delayed response to mistakes and unwillingness to admit mistakes, most recently with JC, and culminating in not accepting any personal responsibility for the latest scandal

All of this = the ugly that we're currently seeing on ice and the zero playoff wins since 2015.

Maybe not unique to the Hawks, and wouldn't trade the three Cups for fixing the issues now, but to say they've performed well since the "even a blind monkey could do this" era is a stretch. We'll likely never know how much was Stan, how much McD, how much his lieutenants. When did Davidson get his promotion to Asst GM initially?
Rota's Rooter
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.23.2017

Nov 29 @ 3:14 PM ET
I don’t see any potential problems acquiring Evander Kane.
#giterdonekyle

- paulr

Nor do I.

With the veteran leadership on this team, I'm confident they'll be able to keep Evander on the straight and narrow. Hell, E. Kane could even take Dach on as a protégé and teach him how to play big-boy hockey.
fattybeef
Joined: 05.04.2010

Nov 29 @ 3:18 PM ET
Is it their eye for/evaluation of talent or inability to take the proper steps to develop young talent once drafted/acquired? Is it their impatience in not letting players develop before giving up on them? Were too many of them rushed for PR purposes(?) rather than putting them in the best position to develop their talents? Both a GM team failing, but different issues.

Default assumption on the board is that Davidson won't be the permanent GM and I agree that's probably best. Not sure I'm confident in someone who learned at the foot of StanBo and his crew being the person to set the future direction for the franchise, particularly because we don't know how much of the current situation he influenced while in his role.

- pdx2ord


Nah. I think they don't know how to evaluate talent. They're not any less or more patient than any other team in the NHL. There is the occasional late bloomer but most players who are the real deal or anything more than an energy guy are in the NHL straight away or spend at most one full season in the A.

Isolating the trades and FA signings they very rarely addressed an actual need with the exception being Vermette when they circumvented the cap. They were so clueless they had to bring the same players back for one last hurrah for whatever reason.
pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 3:24 PM ET
Nah. I think they don't know how to evaluate talent. They're not any less or more patient than any other team in the NHL. There is the occasional late bloomer but most players who are the real deal or anything more than an energy guy are in the NHL straight away or spend at most one full season in the A.

Isolating the trades and FA signings they very rarely addressed an actual need with the exception being Vermette when they circumvented the cap. They were so clueless they had to bring the same players back for one last hurrah for whatever reason.

- fattybeef


Gotcha and I cannot argue, other than seeing some very late bloomers (or maybe it's maturers) like Ryan Hartman and Teuvo out there.

And, damn, I forgot the boomerang players strategy in my list of questionable tactics above.
scottak
Location: I am serious. And don't call me Shirley!
Joined: 08.06.2010

Nov 29 @ 3:26 PM ET
Blackhawk fans should be hoping the Oilers make the Stanly Cup Finals.

If they do, and Duncan Keith is top 4 in TOI in the 1st 3 rounds, the Oiler pick the Hawks own upgrades from 3rd round to 2nd round.

Go Oilers!
Rota's Rooter
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.23.2017

Nov 29 @ 3:26 PM ET
I'm sure you're joking, but there is no way in hell the Hawks are remotely interested in Kane after the PR crapstorm they are currently dealing with.
- Chunk

Kinda.

But then who would have thought that Tony DeAngelo would be playing this season? With the media darling Carolina Hurricanes no less.

And have we forgotten that the Montreal Canadiens took a 1st round "flyer" on Logan Mailloux?

I admit highly unlikely.
hpk90
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: North Potomac, MD
Joined: 12.13.2011

Nov 29 @ 3:29 PM ET
Kinda.

But then who would have thought that Tony DeAngelo would be playing this season? With the media darling Carolina Hurricanes no less.

And have we forgotten that the Montreal Canadiens took a 1st round "flyer" on Logan Mailloux?

I admit highly unlikely.

- Rota's Rooter



The Canadiens just fired Marc Bergevin so he is available too!
pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 4:04 PM ET
Kinda.

But then who would have thought that Tony DeAngelo would be playing this season? With the media darling Carolina Hurricanes no less.

And have we forgotten that the Montreal Canadiens took a 1st round "flyer" on Logan Mailloux?

I admit highly unlikely.

- Rota's Rooter


At least from the way that E Kane's issues have been described, he may need more professional help than could be provided by the leaders in the room.

Me thinks some of those leaders might also be too wrapped up in their own challenges this season to provide a whole lot of special attention to someone like him.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 29 @ 4:08 PM ET
- While winning, failed to stock the cupboard with talented prospects in anticipation of the inevitable dismantling and decline of The Core
- Didn't address seeming lack of development in their AHL affiliate
- Switched strategies seemingly annually starting in 2016, which makes it not really a "strategy" - could never really articulate the plan, preferring instead to pump up certain players as the "answer"
- Painted selves into a cap corner repeatedly, losing top prospects in salary dumps
- Traded away top talent in fear of upcoming negotiations going South before even attempting those negotiations
- And, like that, negotiated seemingly against themselves, offering out-of-market contract terms and conditions to either declining or questionable talent, some before they'd even stepped foot on Hawks' ice
- Tried multiple reclamation projects, none of which have worked out as hoped
- and repeatedly displayed the hubris that led to them thinking they were so much smarter than the other coaches and GMs in those reclamation projects trades in their delayed response to mistakes and unwillingness to admit mistakes, most recently with JC, and culminating in not accepting any personal responsibility for the latest scandal

All of this = the ugly that we're currently seeing on ice and the zero playoff wins since 2015.

Maybe not unique to the Hawks, and wouldn't trade the three Cups for fixing the issues now, but to say they've performed well since the "even a blind monkey could do this" era is a stretch. We'll likely never know how much was Stan, how much McD, how much his lieutenants. When did Davidson get his promotion to Asst GM initially?

- pdx2ord


That "while winning" thing.....you kinda skipped right past that.

BTW, the cupboard was bare after 2017 because the team was a buyer at the deadline for the previous nine years. After the 2010 run, there was a serious cap issue that required a major retooling in order to make two more successful Cup runs. "While winning", indeed.

I'm not sure who decided to begin the rebuild, but that was a logical decision. Also not sure Stan made a unilateral decision to abandon the rebuild early; he's an accountant, and not sticking to a plan doesn't seem like him. At least him alone.

Which long term dynasty GM should the next GM have learned under?

God forbid the Hawks hire anyone who ever worked for such a total and complete failure.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 29 @ 4:13 PM ET
Nah. I think they don't know how to evaluate talent. They're not any less or more patient than any other team in the NHL. There is the occasional late bloomer but most players who are the real deal or anything more than an energy guy are in the NHL straight away or spend at most one full season in the A.

Isolating the trades and FA signings they very rarely addressed an actual need with the exception being Vermette when they circumvented the cap. They were so clueless they had to bring the same players back for one last hurrah for whatever reason.

- fattybeef


What's their record on scouting and signing Euros?
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 29 @ 4:16 PM ET
At least from the way that E Kane's issues have been described, he may need more professional help than could be provided by the leaders in the room.

Me thinks some of those leaders might also be too wrapped up in their own challenges this season to provide a whole lot of special attention to someone like him.

- pdx2ord


He just needs the proper encouragement and a hug. The team should not discriminate against someone because of mental health issues.
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 29 @ 4:39 PM ET
- While winning, failed to stock the cupboard with talented prospects in anticipation of the inevitable dismantling and decline of The Core
- Didn't address seeming lack of development in their AHL affiliate
- Switched strategies seemingly annually starting in 2016, which makes it not really a "strategy" - could never really articulate the plan, preferring instead to pump up certain players as the "answer"
- Painted selves into a cap corner repeatedly, losing top prospects in salary dumps
- Traded away top talent in fear of upcoming negotiations going South before even attempting those negotiations
- And, like that, negotiated seemingly against themselves, offering out-of-market contract terms and conditions to either declining or questionable talent, some before they'd even stepped foot on Hawks' ice
- Tried multiple reclamation projects, none of which have worked out as hoped
- and repeatedly displayed the hubris that led to them thinking they were so much smarter than the other coaches and GMs in those reclamation projects trades in their delayed response to mistakes and unwillingness to admit mistakes, most recently with JC, and culminating in not accepting any personal responsibility for the latest scandal

All of this = the ugly that we're currently seeing on ice and the zero playoff wins since 2015.

Maybe not unique to the Hawks, and wouldn't trade the three Cups for fixing the issues now, but to say they've performed well since the "even a blind monkey could do this" era is a stretch. We'll likely never know how much was Stan, how much McD, how much his lieutenants. When did Davidson get his promotion to Asst GM initially?

- pdx2ord


There’s not a GM in hockey who was better than Bowman from 2010 to 2016 for the on ice product. Of the issues you list, myself and probably 99% of Hawk fans will gladly endure for three Stanley cups the team won. If you prefer no cups but the team stocked better prospects, didn’t have caps issue et all, you’re in the minority.
6628
Joined: 08.24.2009

Nov 29 @ 5:08 PM ET
We are now really starting to see the effects of Bowmans inability to pick a lane and stay in it. Overall, it is just a poorly constructed roster. You wanna be a skilled possession team with mobile, puck moving, offensive defenseman, fine, fill those roles. You wanna be a defensive minded club that capitalizes on a few opportunities and plays shut-down defense, ok, fill those roles. What Bowman did was try and play both sides of the equation and they are nothing. A bunch of mismatched pieces that struggle with one side or the other. Push the offense and they struggle defensively, tighten up the D and they struggle offensively.

SB went and got Strome and Connely and neither can break the lineup, so $6.5mil of wasted cap. You grab Johnson at $5mil per for the next 3 years, is he a $5mil a year player? Heck, i'm not a huge Saad fan, but Saad @ $4.5 for the next 5 seems like a better deal than Johnson. I think S. Jones is fine, he is at a level that Boqvist will never get to. Did they give up too much and is his contract too much? maybe a little, but not horrible considering the comps others signed for.

They need to make a decision soon on whether the belief is still that they can be a playoff team this year. If not, get what you can for Carpenter, Fleury, Johnson, Connelly and whichever of the other interchangeable 4th liners littering the roster. If Strome isn't gonna play, cut bait already, use the roster spot to give shots to Rockford guys.

- TheTrob



Wordsmith at work here
HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Nov 29 @ 5:20 PM ET
There’s not a GM in hockey who was better than Bowman from 2010 to 2016 for the on ice product. Of the issues you list, myself and probably 99% of Hawk fans will gladly endure for three Stanley cups the team won. If you prefer no cups but the team stocked better prospects, didn’t have caps issue et all, you’re in the minority.
- paulr


Yeah, but, but...he didn't draft the Core! When the Hawks got bounced in the first round in successive seasons after 2010, the pitchfork and torch mob were calling for anyone not named Toews to be voted off the island.

Stanbo made some good moves to rebuild depth around the Core but sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.

That said, I'm not worried about someone from Stan's Inner Circle getting the gig because they can't do the job. My preference is for someone outside the organization with no ties to any of the current players to come in have a plan and execute on it.
333inthe3rd
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 02.04.2015

Nov 29 @ 5:21 PM ET
Not like Schmaltz has proven he's a better player than Strome either. Both had career years playing with Kane and both have had some injuries recently that may have held them back.

That one is a wash but Strome's expiring 3 million is better than the 6 schmaltz got.

Also - this we have to get stuff for guys mentality is kind of ridiculous. Cap space is enough of a commodity and they'll have close to 20 million off the books with de Haan, Strome, Flurey and Shaw's money gonzo. And its not like Kubalik will get a raise if they want to bring him back.

Dach isn't making an argument for a big deal so its not like he will break the bank. They'll have flexibility to add next year if they want or they can sit on being pretty bad and hopefully be in a good spot for he 2023 1st round pick.

- fattybeef


Good points. It remains to be seen if Fleury will want to play beyond this season, maybe here if his family settles in, assuming he remains here this year. But I doubt he gets $7 mill per on the next deal. De Haan is probably done after this year. And I could see them moving Kubalik by the deadline, especially if it's true that he wants out.

Dach is definitely having a regression this year, his true sophomore season. I would caution anybody who thinks of trading a guy during a sophomore slump.

Cap Friendly has the Hawks with ~$22 mill in cap space to sign 13 players. Seth Jones has a $4.1 mill bump when the new deal kicks in, and Murphy has a small bump, so that's why the space is less than I thought it should be. So this will be an interesting summer, to say the least.
pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 5:31 PM ET
There’s not a GM in hockey who was better than Bowman from 2010 to 2016 for the on ice product. Of the issues you list, myself and probably 99% of Hawk fans will gladly endure for three Stanley cups the team won. If you prefer no cups but the team stocked better prospects, didn’t have caps issue et all, you’re in the minority.
- paulr


And there's probably not a GM other than Lemieux who wouldn't have given their eye teeth for The Core that Stan had to work with from 2010-2015.

Clearly didn't read my last paragraph...no I would not trade the Cups for a well-stocked prospect pool.
HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Nov 29 @ 5:32 PM ET
Good points. It remains to be seen if Fleury will want to play beyond this season, maybe here if his family settles in, assuming he remains here this year. But I doubt he gets $7 mill per on the next deal. De Haan is probably done after this year. And I could see them moving Kubalik by the deadline, especially if it's true that he wants out.

Dach is definitely having a regression this year, his true sophomore season. I would caution anybody who thinks of trading a guy during a sophomore slump.

Cap Friendly has the Hawks with ~$22 mill in cap space to sign 13 players. Seth Jones has a $4.1 mill bump when the new deal kicks in, and Murphy has a small bump, so that's why the space is less than I thought it should be. So this will be an interesting summer, to say the least.

- 333inthe3rd


Agree. Not saying Dach becomes Couturier but Coots came up as a 19 yo and didn't bust 40 pts til his 6th season.

He's hit a rough patch but at least shown glimpses and even stretches where he can be pretty good. Maybe we could give him another dozen games before trading him for a bag of pucks.
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 29 @ 5:37 PM ET
And there's probably not a GM other than Lemieux who wouldn't have given their eye teeth for The Core that Stan had to work with from 2010-2015.

Clearly didn't read my last paragraph...no I would not trade the Cups for a well-stocked prospect pool.

- pdx2ord

So why are you complaining?
pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 5:37 PM ET
That "while winning" thing.....you kinda skipped right past that.

BTW, the cupboard was bare after 2017 because the team was a buyer at the deadline for the previous nine years. After the 2010 run, there was a serious cap issue that required a major retooling in order to make two more successful Cup runs. "While winning", indeed.

I'm not sure who decided to begin the rebuild, but that was a logical decision. Also not sure Stan made a unilateral decision to abandon the rebuild early; he's an accountant, and not sticking to a plan doesn't seem like him. At least him alone.

Which long term dynasty GM should the next GM have learned under?

God forbid the Hawks hire anyone who ever worked for such a total and complete failure.

- mohel


As a former Arthur Andersen employee and the daughter and sister of accountants (and with no offense to any on this board), they are not really well known for strategic thinking and forward planning as they tend to be risk averse and specialize in analyzing past actions.

And, while Stan may have been the perfect maintainer during 2010-2015, maybe we want someone who learned under a GM who made a plan, executed on it, and completed a successful rebuild in the salary cap era.

Just like with coaches and business executives, there are those who are great at front-running and those who are better at rebuilds.
pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 29 @ 5:38 PM ET
So why are you complaining?
- paulr


I'm not complaining. Your boyfriend challenged my thoughts around Stan and Co not being so great at some things.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Nov 29 @ 5:41 PM ET
Is it their eye for/evaluation of talent or inability to take the proper steps to develop young talent once drafted/acquired? Is it their impatience in not letting players develop before giving up on them? Were too many of them rushed for PR purposes(?) rather than putting them in the best position to develop their talents? Both a GM team failing, but different issues.

Default assumption on the board is that Davidson won't be the permanent GM and I agree that's probably best. Not sure I'm confident in someone who learned at the foot of StanBo and his crew being the person to set the future direction for the franchise, particularly because we don't know how much of the current situation he influenced while in his role.

- pdx2ord


I'm not in that camp. I think there is a very real chance Davidson is named the next GM. Reason being it's the path of least resistance, the cheapest route and Rocky and his boy are familiar with him and I think that's important to those decision makers. Case in point;

People can argue until they're blue over StanBo's legacy but even his backers can't argue with the facts of no playoff wins since 2015 and the prospect cupboard is near bare. The reason for that do no matter the results do and it's not a small sample size. What did Rocky and his boy see in not winning a playoff game since 2015 and their poor prospect pool under StanBo? Last yr they gave him an extension and a promotion not only to continue as GM but to oversee his own self as Prez of Hockey Ops.

These are the people that will decide who to hire to run the on ice Blackhawks. I like Davidson for the fact he started as an intern and video guy and worked his way up and is only 32 yrs old. Sharp and motivated guy for sure and I'd like to see him stay in the organIzation but not as GM and certainly not prez of the hockey side. But looking at Rocky and his boy's MO with Stanley would not surprise me a bit if the Hawks gave their fans a 32 yr old GM to solve the 5 yr old organIzational riddle nobody has been able to.




paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 29 @ 5:44 PM ET
I'm not complaining. Your boyfriend challenged my thoughts around Stan and Co not being so great at some things.
- pdx2ord

He wasn’t so great at some things. But he was great at things that mattered like ensuring the team won more than one cup.
ikeane
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Joined: 11.04.2005

Nov 29 @ 5:59 PM ET
Debrusk requests trade


Ryan Rishaug
@TSNRyanRishaug
Spoke with Rick Valette today, agent for Jake DeBrusk, he confirmed he asked for a trade over the weekend. It's felt a change of scenery moving forward would be beneficial. Debrusk will remain with the team while the Bruins try and facilitate the request
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 29 @ 5:59 PM ET
As a former Arthur Andersen employee and the daughter and sister of accountants (and with no offense to any on this board), they are not really well known for strategic thinking and forward planning as they tend to be risk averse and specialize in analyzing past actions.

And, while Stan may have been the perfect maintainer during 2010-2015, maybe we want someone who learned under a GM who made a plan, executed on it, and completed a successful rebuild in the salary cap era.

Just like with coaches and business executives, there are those who are great at front-running and those who are better at rebuilds.

- pdx2ord

Can you provide an example of a GM who’s won more than one Championship, was able to stock and develop prospects, continue to add depth to the roster to win or try to win another cup and all the while keeping the salary cap in good standing?
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 29 @ 6:10 PM ET
There’s not a GM in hockey who was better than Bowman from 2010 to 2016 for the on ice product. Of the issues you list, myself and probably 99% of Hawk fans will gladly endure for three Stanley cups the team won. If you prefer no cups but the team stocked better prospects, didn’t have caps issue et all, you’re in the minority.
- paulr


It's worse than that. Anyone tainted with the stain of working for the man is presumed incapable.
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