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Forums :: Blog World :: Theo Fox: Training Camp: Day 10
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TheTrob
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Oak Park, IL
Joined: 04.14.2010

Oct 5 @ 10:27 AM ET
Theo, thanks for the regular updates, keep up the great work.

Looking at how the last few spots on this roster will shake out, while some things may seem obvious, you need to factor everything in. That being said, it constantly amazes me how some of these players, who have to know that they are on the fringe, respond the way they do.

Borgstrom, Gaudette, Reichel are all out there hustling on every shift. Yeah, they may make some errors, but it's not by lack of effort. If anything, the mistakes they make are because they are overplaying some situations and taking themselves out of position.

Maybe Nylander is still recovering, maybe his conditioning is not up to par, whatever it is, you would think at this point he would understand the need to pick up his pace of play, but he only does it sporadically. There are flashes where you see his skills and ability, just not on a consistent enough basis. Strome even more-so. He has obviously been told what he needs to do, yet still fails to engage fully. He makes some great plays, then goes back to being invisible or shies away from contact, etc.

There will be some guys that make this roster, at least initially, because they are not going to be exposed to waivers. No GM is going to give up an asset for nothing, especially if its someone like a Nylander, who is young and obviously has talent.

Realistically speaking though, how many of those who were dubbed as talents but took a long time to put it together and then finally succeeded are there. How many actually go on to be stars? A guy like Dan Cleary, a 1st round pick who took 8 years to come into his own, someone like DuClair who has bounced around on his promise. Cleary became a nice piece, never a star. DuClair has shown flashes, but not someone you are build a franchise around. While its not good business to lose assets for nothing, the worry that someone like a Nylander or Strome goes on to become a star should be minimal.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 10:37 AM ET
Theo, thanks for the regular updates, keep up the great work.

Looking at how the last few spots on this roster will shake out, while some things may seem obvious, you need to factor everything in. That being said, it constantly amazes me how some of these players, who have to know that they are on the fringe, respond the way they do.

Borgstrom, Gaudette, Reichel are all out there hustling on every shift. Yeah, they may make some errors, but it's not by lack of effort. If anything, the mistakes they make are because they are overplaying some situations and taking themselves out of position.

Maybe Nylander is still recovering, maybe his conditioning is not up to par, whatever it is, you would think at this point he would understand the need to pick up his pace of play, but he only does it sporadically. There are flashes where you see his skills and ability, just not on a consistent enough basis. Strome even more-so. He has obviously been told what he needs to do, yet still fails to engage fully. He makes some great plays, then goes back to being invisible or shies away from contact, etc.

There will be some guys that make this roster, at least initially, because they are not going to be exposed to waivers. No GM is going to give up an asset for nothing, especially if its someone like a Nylander, who is young and obviously has talent.

Realistically speaking though, how many of those who were dubbed as talents but took a long time to put it together and then finally succeeded are there. How many actually go on to be stars? A guy like Dan Cleary, a 1st round pick who took 8 years to come into his own, someone like DuClair who has bounced around on his promise. Cleary became a nice piece, never a star. DuClair has shown flashes, but not someone you are build a franchise around. While its not good business to lose assets for nothing, the worry that someone like a Nylander or Strome goes on to become a star should be minimal.

- TheTrob


Outstanding point. Guys improve their game as they go along in their careers. Happens all the time. But how many go from bad to really good? Very few. At this point, the risk is that Strome and Nylander max out as serviceable. Serviceable ain't hard to replace.
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 11:15 AM ET
Outstanding point. Guys improve their game as they go along in their careers. Happens all the time. But how many go from bad to really good? Very few. At this point, the risk is that Strome and Nylander max out as serviceable. Serviceable ain't hard to replace.
- mohel


And how old is Nylander? And how old was Kubalik when he was traded to the Hawks?

Nylander is younger than Borgstrom, Guadette, 4 months older than Hagel. So have you decided that Hagel, Borgstrom, Gaudette max out as servicable? What does Dach max out at? He has just as many games as Nylander, with the same point totals. Every time Dach stickhandles, I keep thinking of the Talking Heads song Road to Nowhere. "Elbows" was the same type of player (nicknamed Sonja for his great (figure) skating. My dad used to point out, look Nester had the puck for 30 seconds, and he is in the same place he was 30 seconds ago. That is what I have see(n) from Dach. Does that mean he grades out as a 3C? Or does he finally get it, and he isn't in junior anymore. I haven't seen that change in the exhibition game I watched.

How many chances did DuClair need before he "got" it (playing for Q non the less).

Anyone here remember Jim Pappin (scored the GWG for the last Leafs Stanley Cup)? He played the same type of game as Nylander, Was booed off and on by Hawk fans, yet was a 40 goal scorer, and clutch playoff performer.

Our forward group has some potential, but it is far from the 1972/73 version of the Montreal Canadiens.
333inthe3rd
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 02.04.2015

Oct 5 @ 11:16 AM ET
McCabe struggled in his own end last night. Like he had the yips whenever he was trying to move the puck out of the zone.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 11:33 AM ET
And how old is Nylander? And how old was Kubalik when he was traded to the Hawks?

Nylander is younger than Borgstrom, Guadette, 4 months older than Hagel. So have you decided that Hagel, Borgstrom, Gaudette max out as servicable? What does Dach max out at? He has just as many games as Nylander, with the same point totals. Every time Dach stickhandles, I keep thinking of the Talking Heads song Road to Nowhere. "Elbows" was the same type of player (nicknamed Sonja for his great (figure) skating. My dad used to point out, look Nester had the puck for 30 seconds, and he is in the same place he was 30 seconds ago. That is what I have see(n) from Dach. Does that mean he grades out as a 3C? Or does he finally get it, and he isn't in junior anymore. I haven't seen that change in the exhibition game I watched.

How many chances did DuClair need before he "got" it (playing for Q non the less).

Anyone here remember Jim Pappin (scored the GWG for the last Leafs Stanley Cup)? He played the same type of game as Nylander, Was booed off and on by Hawk fans, yet was a 40 goal scorer, and clutch playoff performer.

Our forward group has some potential, but it is far from the 1972/73 version of the Montreal Canadiens.

- LAHawk


What evidence has Nylander shown that he can be good? Since being drafted high, has he done anything to show he deserved it? If he becomes Duclair in several years, does that mean the Hawks should keep him on the roster until then? I say no.

Hagel has shown far more growth than Nylander. Gaudette has shown something in the league (before gut issues). Has Nylander shown anything since being a high pick? Nylander will be 24 by the end of this season and he was drafted in 2016. If there were signs of advancement, that would be one thing, but he seems to have shown little of that. Just my take from afar.
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 11:38 AM ET
What evidence has Nylander shown that he can be good? Since being drafted high, has he done anything to show he deserved it? If he becomes Duclair in several years, does that mean the Hawks should keep him on the roster until then? I say no.

Hagel has shown far more growth than Nylander. Gaudette has shown something in the league (before gut issues). Has Nylander shown anything since being a high pick? Nylander will be 24 by the end of this season and he was drafted in 2016. If there were signs of advancement, that would be one thing, but he seems to have shown little of that. Just my take from afar.

- mohel


He looked just fine to me in the exhibition game I watched. Made passes that not many forwards would be able to make. I did not see him loafing, or aversion to contact. Showed me more than enough to figure out a way to try not to lose him for nothing. Unfortunately, he seems to be injury prone, so that is a negative.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Oct 5 @ 11:49 AM ET

Ben Pope
@BenPopeCST
·
10m
Blackhawks 1st practice group looks like the AHL group. Gives us an idea who's on the outside looking in right now:

Reichel-CDach-Nylander
Pour-Barratt-Teply
Slavin-Altybarmakian-Osipov

Regula-Mitchell
Phillips-Beaudin
Allan-Crevier

Subban
Delia
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 11:51 AM ET
Ben Pope
@BenPopeCST
·
10m
Blackhawks 1st practice group looks like the AHL group. Gives us an idea who's on the outside looking in right now:

Reichel-CDach-Nylander
Pour-Barratt-Teply
Slavin-Altybarmakian-Osipov

Regula-Mitchell
Phillips-Beaudin
Allan-Crevier

Subban
Delia

- Chunk


This group looks almost as good as what the Hawks trotted out to start the season last year.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 11:59 AM ET
He looked just fine to me in the exhibition game I watched. Made passes that not many forwards would be able to make. I did not see him loafing, or aversion to contact. Showed me more than enough to figure out a way to try not to lose him for nothing. Unfortunately, he seems to be injury prone, so that is a negative.
- LAHawk


I appreciate your take, but for me there are 13 better forwards.
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 12:00 PM ET
I appreciate your take, but for me there are 13 better forwards.
- mohel


Carpenter?
HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Oct 5 @ 12:04 PM ET
He looked just fine to me in the exhibition game I watched. Made passes that not many forwards would be able to make. I did not see him loafing, or aversion to contact. Showed me more than enough to figure out a way to try not to lose him for nothing. Unfortunately, he seems to be injury prone, so that is a negative.
- LAHawk


Last nite was the first game I've been able to see, and I've seen another post or two somewhere indicating Nylander looked ok.

I'm definitely more hesitant to cut bait on him than Strome so if he is showing up and playing like he wants to belong that just presents another good problem to have in my opinion.

I disagree about your comparing him to Dach. While they may have played a similar number of NHL games, the things that are being questioned about Dach have nothing to do with his compete level or play away from the puck. Plus, he's three years younger.
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 12:18 PM ET
Last nite was the first game I've been able to see, and I've seen another post or two somewhere indicating Nylander looked ok.

I'm definitely more hesitant to cut bait on him than Strome so if he is showing up and playing like he wants to belong that just presents another good problem to have in my opinion.

I disagree about your comparing him to Dach. While they may have played a similar number of NHL games, the things that are being questioned about Dach have nothing to do with his compete level or play away from the puck. Plus, he's three years younger.

- HawkintheD


My Dach/Nylander comparison is internet hyperbowl like:

Khaira is horrible
Nylander doesn't compete
S. Jones sucks (I heard a podcast that had the grand poobah of advanced stats JFresh on, and he even stated, he just doesn't like Seth Jones. Is that a new advanced stat?)
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 12:27 PM ET
Carpenter?
- LAHawk


No. Kane, Toews, Cat, Johnson, Kubalik, Hagel, Borgy, Gaudette, Khaira, Dach, Kurashev, Hardman, Entwistle.

Imo, to keep Nylander; Strome, Carpenter, Connolly, and one of the above have to go first. This assumes Reichel is deemed not ready. Again, just my take.
Theo Fox
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.18.2016

Oct 5 @ 12:28 PM ET
Thanks for the write up Theo.

Saw some posts last nite advocating Kurashev, Gaudette and Borgstrom all make the team. Hopefully that happens and they are able to unload Strome and possibly Nylander for draft picks.

If you're top two lines are 12 90 88 and 23 19 8, maybe Dach, Hagel and Borgstrom or Gaudette make up your 3rd line.

I could see Reichel starting in RFD mostly cause he's waiver exempt.

- HawkintheD

If I had to select today, my forward lines would be:

DeBrincat - T Johnson - Kane
Kurashev - Toews - Kubalik
Hagel - Dach - Borgstrom
Khaira - Carpenter - Gaudette

Reichel, Entwistle, and Hardman should start in Rockford.

Try to move Connolly, Strome, and Nylander but imagine moving all of them will be tough so one remains as the 13th forward.
Theo Fox
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.18.2016

Oct 5 @ 12:31 PM ET
If Toews and Little Johnson are the 1 & 2C, I'd have Dach as 3C, with Borgy on his wing.

Another thing down the road a bit.....if Reichel is seen as a center, yet another top nine center moves to wing. Good problem.

Edit - agree about 4C.

- mohel

Agree, good problem to have. The Hawks have a growing cadre of forwards who can play center but can still contribute if moved to wing: Johnson, Dach, Kurashev, Gaudette, Borgstrom, Reichel, Entwistle.

Strome is the odd one out in this regard and on other levels, too. Nylander hasn't ever played pivot at least as far as I am aware.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 12:34 PM ET
My Dach/Nylander comparison is internet hyperbowl like:

Khaira is horrible
Nylander doesn't compete
S. Jones sucks (I heard a podcast that had the grand poobah of advanced stats JFresh on, and he even stated, he just doesn't like Seth Jones. Is that a new advanced stat?)

- LAHawk


Fully agree about the internet hyperbole thing.

I think another one is "Nylander obviously has the talent if he can just put it all together".
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Oct 5 @ 12:35 PM ET
My Dach/Nylander comparison is internet hyperbowl like:

Khaira is horrible
Nylander doesn't compete
S. Jones sucks (I heard a podcast that had the grand poobah of advanced stats JFresh on, and he even stated, he just doesn't like Seth Jones. Is that a new advanced stat?)

- LAHawk

I’m in the group that doesn’t think Nylander is competitive, at least by NHL standards. If he has room to operate he does have skill. But he’s not interested in battling for loose pucks. He hasn’t shown he’s willing to consistently get his nose over the puck in high traffic areas. He doesn’t go to the net looking for rebounds, deflections or trying to screen the goalie or disrupt the defenders. The obvious rebuttal will be, “well Kane doesn’t “ but my answer is Nylander isn’t Kane and isn’t close and Kane has shown he’s far more willing to play in the tougher areas on the ice.

Can Nylander become more competitive to allow his obvious talents to thrive? Perhaps. But I wouldn’t bet the rent money on it.
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 12:35 PM ET
If I had to select today, my forward lines would be:

DeBrincat - T Johnson - Kane
Kurashev - Toews - Kubalik
Hagel - Dach - Borgstrom
Khaira - Carpenter - Gaudette

Reichel, Entwistle, and Hardman should start in Rockford.

Try to move Connolly, Strome, and Nylander but imagine moving all of them will be tough so one remains as the 13th forward.

- Theo Fox


For the last 4 years, the Hawks have been 30th out of 31 teams on the PK. Carpenter has been here for 2 of those years. He was not tradeable at last season's deadline, Seattle didn't want him. I would send him down, move Gaudette to center and keep Entwhistle or Hardman as 4th line road graders. They have deserved it based on training camp.
Theo Fox
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.18.2016

Oct 5 @ 12:48 PM ET
Theo, thanks for the regular updates, keep up the great work.

Looking at how the last few spots on this roster will shake out, while some things may seem obvious, you need to factor everything in. That being said, it constantly amazes me how some of these players, who have to know that they are on the fringe, respond the way they do.

Borgstrom, Gaudette, Reichel are all out there hustling on every shift. Yeah, they may make some errors, but it's not by lack of effort. If anything, the mistakes they make are because they are overplaying some situations and taking themselves out of position.

Maybe Nylander is still recovering, maybe his conditioning is not up to par, whatever it is, you would think at this point he would understand the need to pick up his pace of play, but he only does it sporadically. There are flashes where you see his skills and ability, just not on a consistent enough basis. Strome even more-so. He has obviously been told what he needs to do, yet still fails to engage fully. He makes some great plays, then goes back to being invisible or shies away from contact, etc.

There will be some guys that make this roster, at least initially, because they are not going to be exposed to waivers. No GM is going to give up an asset for nothing, especially if its someone like a Nylander, who is young and obviously has talent.

Realistically speaking though, how many of those who were dubbed as talents but took a long time to put it together and then finally succeeded are there. How many actually go on to be stars? A guy like Dan Cleary, a 1st round pick who took 8 years to come into his own, someone like DuClair who has bounced around on his promise. Cleary became a nice piece, never a star. DuClair has shown flashes, but not someone you are build a franchise around. While its not good business to lose assets for nothing, the worry that someone like a Nylander or Strome goes on to become a star should be minimal.

- TheTrob

Excellent points all around.

Dan Cleary is one of the prime examples I use of a former 1st rounder who redefined his career to become a very good middle 6 forward during the Wings dominant run which now seems eons ago (so does the Hawks trio of Cups for that matter).

I don't know if Strome and Nylander have it in ther DNA to evolve like Cleary did. The elder Strome (Ryan) has bounced back strongly in his career so maybe Dylan can?

One would think that father Michael and brother Willie would be a forecast of what to expect from Alex but that's slowly not becoming the case. Never too late to turn his ship around but will he?

The Reinhart brothers come to mind, too, as far as hockey bloodlines not being consistent to predict NHL success. Sam is the only one who made it big. Griffin: no. Max: no. Their father Paul had a pretty decent career.
Theo Fox
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.18.2016

Oct 5 @ 12:50 PM ET
For the last 4 years, the Hawks have been 30th out of 31 teams on the PK. Carpenter has been here for 2 of those years. He was not tradeable at last season's deadline, Seattle didn't want him. I would send him down, move Gaudette to center and keep Entwhistle or Hardman as 4th line road graders. They have deserved it based on training camp.
- LAHawk

No argument here but can see Carpenter being a starter to at least begin the season (Colliton seems to like him a lot similar to Kampf). My preferred 4th line would be Entwistle centering Khaira and Gaudette.
breadbag
Location: Edmonton, AB
Joined: 11.30.2015

Oct 5 @ 1:05 PM ET
I think we might see Borgstrom line up as 4C. He was playing C between Hardman and Carpenter last night.

Not sure if I'm a fan of Debrincat - Johnson - Kane together as a line. It can be hard to read much from exhibition, since the guys are still getting the rust off and not pushing hard yet.
bhawks2241
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 09.17.2013

Oct 5 @ 1:06 PM ET
And how old is Nylander? And how old was Kubalik when he was traded to the Hawks?

Nylander is younger than Borgstrom, Guadette, 4 months older than Hagel. So have you decided that Hagel, Borgstrom, Gaudette max out as servicable? What does Dach max out at? He has just as many games as Nylander, with the same point totals. Every time Dach stickhandles, I keep thinking of the Talking Heads song Road to Nowhere. "Elbows" was the same type of player (nicknamed Sonja for his great (figure) skating. My dad used to point out, look Nester had the puck for 30 seconds, and he is in the same place he was 30 seconds ago. That is what I have see(n) from Dach. Does that mean he grades out as a 3C? Or does he finally get it, and he isn't in junior anymore. I haven't seen that change in the exhibition game I watched.

How many chances did DuClair need before he "got" it (playing for Q non the less).

Anyone here remember Jim Pappin (scored the GWG for the last Leafs Stanley Cup)? He played the same type of game as Nylander, Was booed off and on by Hawk fans, yet was a 40 goal scorer, and clutch playoff performer.

Our forward group has some potential, but it is far from the 1972/73 version of the Montreal Canadiens.

- LAHawk


Panarin was 24 when he came over.
bhawks2241
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 09.17.2013

Oct 5 @ 1:10 PM ET
I’m in the group that doesn’t think Nylander is competitive, at least by NHL standards. If he has room to operate he does have skill. But he’s not interested in battling for loose pucks. He hasn’t shown he’s willing to consistently get his nose over the puck in high traffic areas. He doesn’t go to the net looking for rebounds, deflections or trying to screen the goalie or disrupt the defenders. The obvious rebuttal will be, “well Kane doesn’t “ but my answer is Nylander isn’t Kane and isn’t close and Kane has shown he’s far more willing to play in the tougher areas on the ice.

Can Nylander become more competitive to allow his obvious talents to thrive? Perhaps. But I wouldn’t bet the rent money on it.

- paulr


Teuvo never did any of that while on the Hawks. He's a pretty good forward these days. I think we all want to see more from Nylander but he didn't play last year and he wasn't bad in 2019, considering he played with horrible talent most of the time.

If the Hawks are in win now mode then ship him out. If the Hawks are trying to develop young skilled talent then you keep him for at least another year.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Oct 5 @ 1:22 PM ET
Teuvo never did any of that while on the Hawks. He's a pretty good forward these days. I think we all want to see more from Nylander but he didn't play last year and he wasn't bad in 2019, considering he played with horrible talent most of the time.

If the Hawks are in win now mode then ship him out. If the Hawks are trying to develop young skilled talent then you keep him for at least another year.

- bhawks2241


So, who goes instead?
LAHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.02.2017

Oct 5 @ 1:31 PM ET
So, who goes instead?
- mohel


You can have 2 extra forwards, and just 1 extra D.
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