Better late than never

We’re watching the little guy tonight… he should be dropped off any minute so there’s a good chance I may get too busy as well lol
- Dozzer

You enjoy your time with him, most of these people are adults.

I still prefer George Bell.

OK, maybe not George Bell's defence, but you still get the idea.
- Atomic Wedgie

Wedgie - why? Bell's first full season in 1984 as a 24 year old he hit 26 Hr. with a .292 BA. Great Numbers for sure, he hit 47 homers as a 27 yr old in 87. The only season he ever hit more than 31 Hr.

who cares, pay him
- senstroll

Exactly, great hitter and pretty easy to cheer for. About as classy a young star as you will see out there.

Obviously he should be paid.

Who cares if he wins MVP?
- Leafs43

you said an MVP is one more thing he can use to get more $$

to that I said, who cares, add a few MVPs...awesome.. then pay him all the money

Better late than never

We’re watching the little guy tonight… he should be dropped off any minute so there’s a good chance I may get too busy as well lol
- Dozzer

I didn't know the Habs were playing.

Think he wins the Calder this year?

who cares, pay him
- senstroll

Yeah. Literally anything he asks for at this point, I think. Sign over the deed to the Marriott for (frank)s sake.

I didn't know the Habs were playing.

Think he wins the Calder this year?
- Atomic Wedgie

lolol.... well done

Yeah. Literally anything he asks for at this point, I think. Sign over the deed to the Marriott for (frank)s sake.
- BINGO!

Trout signed a 12 year 432mil
is that enough for Vlad? yes cool... want a little more..ok cool also

Wedgie - why? Bell's first full season in 1984 as a 24 year old he hit 26 Hr. with a .292 BA. Great Numbers for sure, he hit 47 homers as a 27 yr old in 87. The only season he ever hit more than 31 Hr.
- winsix

Because I'm an old grumpy frank.

I don't care if the Jays win the next 20 World Series in a row - the teams from about 1981-1988 will always be my favourites.

They were my introduction to baseball, and they are my warmest memories.

People don't believe me, but I like them better than the '92 and '93 Jays.

I always play the game: if I gave you a coupon for a Jays jersey of any player in any era, who would you get?

In no particular order, my top three would be:

Stieb
Upshaw
Barfield

There's probably 5 more guys on that list from the early teams before I get to the '92 team (probably Henke).

Because I'm an old grumpy frank.

I don't care if the Jays win the next 20 World Series in a row - the teams from about 1981-1988 will always be my favourites.

They were my introduction to baseball, and they are my warmest memories.

People don't believe me, but I like them better than the '92 and '93 Jays.

I always play the game: if I gave you a coupon for a Jays jersey of any player in any era, who would you get?

In no particular order, my top three would be:

Stieb
Upshaw
Barfield

There's probably 5 more guys on that list from the early teams before I get to the '92 team (probably Henke).
- Atomic Wedgie

Lloyd Mosby, Tony Fern... Fred MaGriff

Because I'm an old grumpy frank.

I don't care if the Jays win the next 20 World Series in a row - the teams from about 1981-1988 will always be my favourites.

They were my introduction to baseball, and they are my warmest memories.

People don't believe me, but I like them better than the '92 and '93 Jays.

I always play the game: if I gave you a coupon for a Jays jersey of any player in any era, who would you get?

In no particular order, my top three would be:

Stieb
Upshaw
Barfield

There's probably 5 more guys on that list from the early teams before I get to the '92 team (probably Henke).
- Atomic Wedgie

is the 87 Jays team the best one ever?
probably

It is crazy.
But he's going up against someone that is doing things this league hasnt seen.
- Fakepartofme

Nothing bothers me more than this narrative that Ohtani is the hands-down MVP winner because he's doing something that no one has seen before. But he's not MVP calibre at ANY of it.

I know he's going to win. I understand that. I just think it's carried like the momentum of a snowball on a hill. I don't see how he deserves it.

As a pitcher, he's been very good. It's a season that you would be proud of, and he would be a key part of your rotation - one that you wished would be able to pitch more and enough to be actually valuable to making the playoffs. As it is he starts 1/3 less than the top starters in the league. He still carries the 8th best WAR among pitchers, so it's nothing to sneeze at. But as a batter he is behind in every category.

In other words, as a starter he hasn't pitched enough innings to qualify amongst ML pitchers because there's a standard of 1IP / Game Played. A standard they are ignoring due to the hype that is the Unicorn, Ohtani.

As a batter he qualifies. He qualifies well enough to carry the 49th best batting average and the 14th best WAR as a player.

In other words at the moment Ohtani has played 142 games and in 22 of those, he's been the 8th best pitcher in the AL - and the best overall player because of his batting included. In the other 120 games he's been the 14th best batter.

Vlad has played 148 games, and Semien has played 149. In those games, they have been the most valuable player to their team in the entire league in terms of adding Wins.

WAR
Guerrero 2
Ohtani 14
Semien 1 (included only because he's #1 in WAR)

HR
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 3

RBI
Guerrero 4
Ohtani 14

Avg
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 49

OPS / Slugging
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 2

Runs
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 10

Strikeouts
Ohtani 3
Guerrero 60

Walks
Guerrero 3
Ohtani 7

Total Bases
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 5


Pitching WAR
Ohtani 8

Wins
Ohtani T-25

ERA
Ohtani Would be 5th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings

K's
Ohtani 22

WHIP
Ohtani Would be 5th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings

SO/W Ration
Ohtani Would be 11th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings

Because I'm an old grumpy frank.

I don't care if the Jays win the next 20 World Series in a row - the teams from about 1981-1988 will always be my favourites.

They were my introduction to baseball, and they are my warmest memories.

People don't believe me, but I like them better than the '92 and '93 Jays.

I always play the game: if I gave you a coupon for a Jays jersey of any player in any era, who would you get?

In no particular order, my top three would be:

Stieb
Upshaw
Barfield

There's probably 5 more guys on that list from the early teams before I get to the '92 team (probably Henke).
- Atomic Wedgie

1- Tony Fernandez
2- Dave Stieb
3- Jimmy Key

Nothing bothers me more than this narrative that Ohtani is the hands-down MVP winner because he's doing something that no one has seen before. But he's not MVP calibre at ANY of it.

- Monkeypunk

another consideration is fielding one plays in the field the other doesnt

is the 87 Jays team the best one ever?
probably
- senstroll

Loved the 85-87 teams but 92/93 has to be the greatest lineups ever. WAMCO!

Mike who?
- The Law

twisted mike .....

This is a pretty good article:

https://www.si.com/mlb/20...ni-guerrero-jr-the-opener

Ohtani is once in a lifetime. Hell, last guy to be comparable was Babe Ruth, so more than a lifetime, I guess.
- Atomic Wedgie

Agree, Ohtani's season is remarkable, he is not as good an all around hitter as Vladdy, not yet at least.

Now if you look at Ruth's pitching stats, he was a 23 game winner in 1916 (but wasn't a full time hitter) The only season where he combined starts and hitting was 1919 when went 9 and 5 and hit 29 homers. There wasn't much overlap and I suspect there won't be much with Ohtani either. What sets Ruth apart from all hitters is the lifetime OBA of .474.

He was so good he would get walked intentionally with the bases loaded.

another consideration is fielding one plays in the field the other doesnt
- senstroll

One is helping pull his team into the playoffs

I didn't know the Habs were playing.

Think he wins the Calder this year?
- Atomic Wedgie

I think he will.

Lloyd Mosby, Tony Fern... Fred MaGriff
- bixll

1985. Final weekend of the regular season.

Young Wedgie and friends in deep, deep centre field bleachers of Exhibition Stadium.

Top of the 9th. Jays are winning. Win the game, and the Jays clinch their first pennant.

Lazy fly ball to centre field - this is it!!! THIS IS IT!!!

That wasn't it. Moseby drops it. I can't even remember who the opponent was, but we lose.

Jays clinch the pennant the next day.

It took me a long, long, long time to forgive Lloyd Moseby.

Loved the 85-87 teams but 92/93 has to be the greatest lineups ever. WAMCO!
- The Law

I loved when they added Henderson, pushing Devo to bat 9th.

1985. Final weekend of the regular season.

Young Wedgie and friends in deep, deep centre field bleachers of Exhibition Stadium.

Top of the 9th. Jays are winning. Win the game, and the Jays clinch their first pennant.

Lazy fly ball to centre field - this is it!!! THIS IS IT!!!

That wasn't it. Moseby drops it. I can't even remember the who the opponent was, but we lose.

Jays clinch the pennant the next day.

It took me a long, long, long time to forgive Lloyd Moseby.
- Atomic Wedgie

During their big run against the A's Center fielder Dave Henderson was arguing constantly with 2 guys in Sightlines Restaurant. It was my former boss and his buddy, Tom Bitove. They gave every center fielder a hard time for 2 years.

[quote=Monkeypunk]

Some good points, you should check the WAR stats you posted, I think they are off.

Vladdy 2021 6.8
Vladdy Lifetime 9.4

Semien 2021 6.8
Semien Lifetime 28.3

Ohtani 2021 8.1
Ohtani Lifetime 14.1

Just for fun

Ruth 1923 14.2
Lifetime 183.1

This is a pretty good article:

https://www.si.com/mlb/20...ni-guerrero-jr-the-opener

Ohtani is once in a lifetime. Hell, last guy to be comparable was Babe Ruth, so more than a lifetime, I guess.
- Atomic Wedgie

I've made my case, and the author has made his. I disagree here, but keep in mind that Tom Verducci has unspeakable bias. He jumped on the Ohtani hype-train a few years back and he has been shoveling the coal into its engine ever since.

I accept that we've never seen its like - a pitcher who hits a ton of home runs. Or is it a guy who hits a lot of home runs who can also pitch? Not since Babe Ruth. It doesn't make him Babe Ruth - no matter how much Verducci wants to draw the comparison and call Ohtani better (which he did) - or make excuses that people stopped pitching to Ohtani. Did they? He has 2 homers in September, and has only struck out 19 times in 15 games. But he's only walked 8 times. He's hitting .212 in September. That's not MVP hitting either.

1- Tony Fernandez
2- Dave Stieb
3- Jimmy Key
- PatC80

Stieb was a gem. Tony Kubek used to call him conveniently wild.