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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: "Gratton Trade" for Weber Makes Financial & Hockey Sense
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Pyzik
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Flemington, NJ
Joined: 01.18.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:17 AM ET
All the guys on here that hated the Richards and Carter deals when they were announced last year are going to hate what Holmgren gives up to finally get Weber. But, like last year, you will come around to understand that a bold move like this requires an enormously courageous finish.

The green light strategy has taken the money part of the deal off the table. Nashville owns his rights for 14 years based on the terms negotiated by the Flyers. Ownership has decided they will pay. The only thing that matters is what would you be prepared to give to get Weber?

- spatso


I think the green light was a bluff to try and get Weber for a lower cost to the Preds. Someone is now calling their bluff, probably something they thought would never happen.
sulshawn
Joined: 07.28.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:17 AM ET
Instead of the Schenn's, spatso, would Jake andd Coburn, plus picks, be sufficient in your eyes?

Just curious.

- LordStanley88


I know this wasn't directed to me but I would hate to include Coburn in any trade. This would be the 4th player in little over a year who signed long term extensions to remain with the Flyers to get traded. I'm sure nashville would covet Coburn but if it means getting Weber, I think maybe you send MAB Coburn and Voracek with 1 draft pick if nashville would do that
LordStanley88
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.30.2012

Jul 23 @ 9:18 AM ET
Eskin spot on again with his reporting on Penn State from yesterday.

Sanctions just handed down.
Philly1980
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.30.2011

Jul 23 @ 9:19 AM ET
All the guys on here that hated the Richards and Carter deals when they were announced last year are going to hate what Holmgren gives up to finally get Weber. But, like last year, you will come around to understand that a bold move like this requires an enormously courageous finish.

The green light strategy has taken the money part of the deal off the table. Nashville owns his rights for 14 years based on the terms negotiated by the Flyers. Ownership has decided they will pay. The only thing that matters is what would you be prepared to give to get Weber?

- spatso


Then why the wait? if you have to mull it over for so many days, that to mee doesnt seem like a good sign.
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:19 AM ET
Yea I think you'd be deranged to reject that deal even under the circumstances.
- LordStanley88


People need to get the whole offer sheet thing out of their heads.

Without an offer sheet is Weber worth Voracek, Meszaros, Bourdon and 3 1st rounders? I think he's very close to being worth that. Maybe one fewer 1st rounders, but that's around what I felt Weber would demand in a trade all along.

My first suggestion at Nashville demand was back in January or so, when I suggested JvR, Brayden Schenn and 2 1sts as a fair deal for him.
MBFlyerfan
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Be nice from now on, NJ
Joined: 03.17.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:20 AM ET
Penn State gets $60 million fine, vacates all wins from 1998-2011. Get a 4 year bowl ban.

That program is toast.
sulshawn
Joined: 07.28.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:21 AM ET
You do realize that the Flyers rarely have off-season acquisition press conferences immediately after adding players? They signed Bryzgalov last summer on June 23rd, and had his introductory PC 2 months later.

The delay in the Schenn introduction has more to do with the Flyers standard practice of waiting for guys to finish their summer and come to Philly than a looming trade.

- Jsaquella


June 23, 2011 Flyers traded Carter and Richards
June 28, 2011 Flyers hold press conference introducing Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, and Wayne Simmonds


That was 5 days after the trades
bradleyc4
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: the jewelry is still out
Joined: 01.16.2007

Jul 23 @ 9:21 AM ET
The longer this drags out, the more inclined I am to think that Nashville doesn't match.
BringBack25
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: deep lurk
Joined: 01.03.2007

Jul 23 @ 9:21 AM ET
Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: "Gratton Trade" for Weber Makes Financial & Hockey Sense
- bmeltzer


Fantastic job as usual Bill. I completely agree with your assessment of Poile and the Nashville owners. Whatever their reasons, they have made a mess of both the Suter and Weber situations. And their other roster moves are a mixed bag at best.

To be sure, being the GM of a franchise like Nashville is a tough job. But Poile and the Nashville brain trust have screwed the pooch in a big way here. I think the best they can hope to come out of this with is a "cut your losses" type of deal like the one you suggest. Matching the offer sheet seems tantamount to franchise suicide for them at this point.
Rustyblade
Nashville Predators
Location: Gallatin, TN
Joined: 11.16.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:22 AM ET
As a Day one season ticket holder I think they match unless they get what they want. There is no reason that can't restructure capital and fit this in to work, but it is the upfront money they were not offering. I believe they had an equivalent deal in salary (even for Suter) but without the bonus and I think Weber feels there won't be hockey and salaries are going to be rolled back again.

After the 1st two bonuses are out of the way he would bring way better return to the Preds than this blog is offering now.

If I am Poile, I match then let the bidding begin next year and I feel confident we would get a top 6 forward a good Dman and some picks that might work out better than the low 1st rounders Philly's are sure to be.
Philly1980
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.30.2011

Jul 23 @ 9:23 AM ET
People need to get the whole offer sheet thing out of their heads.

Without an offer sheet is Weber worth Voracek, Meszaros, Bourdon and 3 1st rounders? I think he's very close to being worth that. Maybe one fewer 1st rounders, but that's around what I felt Weber would demand in a trade all along.

My first suggestion at Nashville demand was back in January or so, when I suggested JvR, Brayden Schenn and 2 1sts as a fair deal for him.

- Jsaquella


I agree....Too much is being put on sign and trade him next year strategy...Are other teams willing to pay that much? My answer would be no. It is admirable that Schenn and Couts were asked in a trade by Poile but no way...They have all star potential those kids, and in a few years both combined would be way more worth than weber.
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:23 AM ET
June 23, 2011 Flyers traded Carter and Richards
June 28, 2011 Flyers hold press conference introducing Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, and Wayne Simmonds


That was 5 days after the trades

- sulshawn


Yes, and none of the other additions were introduced until August, despite being acquired around the same time.

It is possible that Schenn is involved in Weber talks, but I doubt the delay in introducing him is the reason.
sulshawn
Joined: 07.28.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:23 AM ET
As a Day one season ticket holder I think they match unless they get what they want. There is no reason that can't restructure capital and fit this in to work, but it is the upfront money they were not offering. I believe they had an equivalent deal in salary (even for Suter) but without the bonus and I think Weber feels there won't be hockey and salaries are going to be rolled back again.

After the 1st two bonuses are out of the way he would bring way better return to the Preds than this blog is offering now.

If I am Poile, I match then let the bidding begin next year and I feel confident we would get a top 6 forward a good Dman and some picks that might work out better than the low 1st rounders Philly's are sure to be.

- Rustyblade


Would you think 2 1sts and both Brayden and Luke Schenn will be better than another deal you could get next year or beyond?
Philly1980
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.30.2011

Jul 23 @ 9:25 AM ET
As a Day one season ticket holder I think they match unless they get what they want. There is no reason that can't restructure capital and fit this in to work, but it is the upfront money they were not offering. I believe they had an equivalent deal in salary (even for Suter) but without the bonus and I think Weber feels there won't be hockey and salaries are going to be rolled back again.

After the 1st two bonuses are out of the way he would bring way better return to the Preds than this blog is offering now.

If I am Poile, I match then let the bidding begin next year and I feel confident we would get a top 6 forward a good Dman and some picks that might work out better than the low 1st rounders Philly's are sure to be.

- Rustyblade


LOL by capital restructuring....does that mean your taxes go up?
sulshawn
Joined: 07.28.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:25 AM ET
Yes, and none of the other additions were introduced until August, despite being acquired around the same time.

It is possible that Schenn is involved in Weber talks, but I doubt the delay in introducing him is the reason.

- Jsaquella


I'm talking about players they acquire in trades, not free agents. I don't know why but I did research on it and realized the Flyers usually introduce players they traded for after a few weeks and free agents usually longer. I think it's a little weird they didn't with Luke considering the PR and story playing with Brayden.
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:25 AM ET
As a Day one season ticket holder I think they match unless they get what they want. There is no reason that can't restructure capital and fit this in to work, but it is the upfront money they were not offering. I believe they had an equivalent deal in salary (even for Suter) but without the bonus and I think Weber feels there won't be hockey and salaries are going to be rolled back again.

After the 1st two bonuses are out of the way he would bring way better return to the Preds than this blog is offering now.

If I am Poile, I match then let the bidding begin next year and I feel confident we would get a top 6 forward a good Dman and some picks that might work out better than the low 1st rounders Philly's are sure to be.

- Rustyblade


What if Weber gets a NMC in the deal? If he has a NMC, he can simply force the Preds hands next year by refusing trades. Also, how likely is it for a team with Nashville's questionable finances to pay a guy $27mm in one year and then trade him?
Pyzik
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Flemington, NJ
Joined: 01.18.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:26 AM ET
As a Day one season ticket holder I think they match unless they get what they want. There is no reason that can't restructure capital and fit this in to work, but it is the upfront money they were not offering. I believe they had an equivalent deal in salary (even for Suter) but without the bonus and I think Weber feels there won't be hockey and salaries are going to be rolled back again.

After the 1st two bonuses are out of the way he would bring way better return to the Preds than this blog is offering now.

If I am Poile, I match then let the bidding begin next year and I feel confident we would get a top 6 forward a good Dman and some picks that might work out better than the low 1st rounders Philly's are sure to be.

- Rustyblade



Philly's low end 1st rounders tend to bring in solid players....take Giroux and Richards as case in point.
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jul 23 @ 9:26 AM ET
I'm talking about players they acquire in trades, not free agents. I don't know why but I did research on it and realized the Flyers usually introduce players they traded for after a few weeks and free agents usually longer. I think it's a little weird they didn't with Luke considering the PR and story playing with Brayden.
- sulshawn


They traded for Bryzgalov. Didn't introduce him for 2 months.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 23 @ 9:27 AM ET
Although I expect a green light strategy to be announced, the fact remains that thus far it hasn't been.
- LordStanley88


Coburn is a forward step. Far more potential than L Schenn. But, Nashville craves a number one center, they have for a long time. I think it is the one thing they might be able to sell their fans on is the idea that a future #1 is part of the package.

The announcement of the green light will be structured for the Nashville faithful. It will involve the full board and more information on capitalization. When leaked it will provide Poile with total authority to settle the matter in the best interest of Nashville's fans and players.
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Jul 23 @ 9:27 AM ET
Although I expect a green light strategy to be announced, the fact remains that thus far it hasn't been.
- LordStanley88


I was wondering if I missed something. I don't remember hearing that Nashville had officially announced it was willing to match.
9thPassyunk
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: San Diego, CA
Joined: 04.13.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:28 AM ET
The economic model in Nashville has obviously not been working. The Taxpayer has had to get involved to keep the Team solvent. Any "green light" to match would amount to Ownership continuing deficit spending and jeopardizing the financial future of the franchise. Yes Wilson has the money, but if he has no exit strategy for this investment, he is throwing good money after bad.

There are to many financial risks as an Ownership group to simply match and spend. A viable trade package is inevitably what I believe will happen and it will probably be done on Homer's terms.
LordStanley88
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.30.2012

Jul 23 @ 9:28 AM ET
People need to get the whole offer sheet thing out of their heads.

Without an offer sheet is Weber worth Voracek, Meszaros, Bourdon and 3 1st rounders? I think he's very close to being worth that. Maybe one fewer 1st rounders, but that's around what I felt Weber would demand in a trade all along.

My first suggestion at Nashville demand was back in January or so, when I suggested JvR, Brayden Schenn and 2 1sts as a fair deal for him.

- Jsaquella


Which is why I'm on the fence about moving Schenn, Schenn, and picks for Weber.

In reality, I think it's a good hockey move, but at the same time I want to keep them if at all possible.

However, if Poile is truly given the green light by the owners then Homer needs to seriously consider, at the very least, moving those 2 IMO.

I have said all along my only untouchables would be Couturier and Giroux.

Jake, who I love, would be kept under this scenario too.
stveshdy
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 06.28.2010

Jul 23 @ 9:28 AM ET
Penn State gets $60 million fine, vacates all wins from 1998-2011. Get a 4 year bowl ban.

That program is toast.

- MBFlyerfan


Glad to see the NCAA punish the kids who did absolutely nothing wrong.
NickTheKid87
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 11.19.2010

Jul 23 @ 9:28 AM ET
All the guys on here that hated the Richards and Carter deals when they were announced last year are going to hate what Holmgren gives up to finally get Weber. But, like last year, you will come around to understand that a bold move like this requires an enormously courageous finish.

The green light strategy has taken the money part of the deal off the table. Nashville owns his rights for 14 years based on the terms negotiated by the Flyers. Ownership has decided they will pay. The only thing that matters is what would you be prepared to give to get Weber?

- spatso


Not the same. We gave up our core for young players. This is just the opposite: we'd be giving up picks/players for a franchise defenseman.
sulshawn
Joined: 07.28.2008

Jul 23 @ 9:29 AM ET
They traded for Bryzgalov. Didn't introduce him for 2 months.
- Jsaquella


We can play the forth game with introducing Bryzgalov months later as he was in Russia and I'll bring up when they introduced Brayden, Voracek and Simmonds (5 days after trade), Pronger (7 days after trade), etc.
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