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Forums :: Blog World :: Justin Lowe: The Case For Trading Jonathan Toews
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HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Jun 12 @ 9:47 AM ET
No question a marketing guy shouldn't be doing a hockey guy's job. The only way that worked was the timing as he stepped in at the perfect time. SB was the capologist for years so it could be argued that he was more of a money guy than a hockey guy as well, although he was elevated to asst GM at some point. Dudley was a pure hockey guy who helped build the Tampa and Chicago cup teams and bailed soon after the current regime took the reins as he obviously saw the writing on the wall. Since then he was behind the Toronto rebuild and just went to work for Carolina. Over the years I've argued that they all, from Rocky on down to Q, stepped in at the perfect time. And I'll go to my grave saying the players talent, pride, and confidence was more responsible for their run than anything. Now is when you you see the impact of money guys running hockey teams. And the fact that it took so long to show is again more due to the players efforts than anyone elses.
Nice post Roar

- 6628


I agree to a point and primarily if we’re talking about 2010. I think Bowman identified some of the correct players to keep that could have ended up Cap casualties (Hammer and Sharp in particular, Bickell and Fro over Brouwer), made some shrewd under the radar trades (Oduya, Zus, Fro) and drafted some key cogs in Shaw and Saad that contributed in way more than a minor way than some here would lead you to believe.

I don’t think ‘13 or ‘15 can be merely chalked up to right place right time at all, at least from a GM and hockey ops perspective.
HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Jun 12 @ 9:51 AM ET
I would guess he plays in Europe next season and that’s not a bad thing.
- DarthKane


Either I think would be good and would prefer that to having play here before he’s ready.

There is a good article in the Athletic on Forsling today and I’m hoping this is the year he comes up and gives them no reason to send him back to RFD.
Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 10.31.2017

Jun 12 @ 10:08 AM ET
I would guess he plays in Europe next season and that’s not a bad thing.
- DarthKane


It wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

I think the most ideal though would be to have him playing and learning under Colliton, Brookbank and King.

When I heard that Jokiharju was potentially able to play in the AHL, I envisioned the same path as Timothy Liljegren (Leafs prospect) took last year playing for the Marlies as an 18 year old.

You know what that means though if Jokiharju heads to Rockford... they will now have 477 defencemen in the NHL/AHL/ECHL next year.
kmw4631
Location: CHICAGO
Joined: 02.27.2015

Jun 12 @ 10:11 AM ET
Either I think would be good and would prefer that to having play here before he’s ready.

There is a good article in the Athletic on Forsling today and I’m hoping this is the year he comes up and gives them no reason to send him back to RFD.

- HawkintheD


The problem with both Murph and forsling is they are both limited by there speed. Forsling has good feet but is slow inline. I think both guys are 4-5 ceilings. Forsling has a good shot, and Murphy has strength but since both are a step slow I just do not see them top 3 guys on good teams.
6628
Joined: 08.24.2009

Jun 12 @ 10:11 AM ET
I agree to a point and primarily if we’re talking about 2010. I think Bowman identified some of the correct players to keep that could have ended up Cap casualties (Hammer and Sharp in particular, Bickell and Fro over Brouwer), made some shrewd under the radar trades (Oduya, Zus, Fro) and drafted some key cogs in Shaw and Saad that contributed in way more than a minor way than some here would lead you to believe.

I don’t think ‘13 or ‘15 can be merely chalked up to right place right time at all, at least from a GM and hockey ops perspective.

- HawkintheD




They still had the core with their confidence bordering on arrogance. As soon as Mcd got Scotty on board I immediately said Dale better get his resume together as the only reason Scotty would bother is if Stan was the next GM. And I knew it wouldn't take long. And since then I've said many times that Stan has the toughest job in town. He has no choice but to try too hard due to the way things are set up. And then he acquires players (some good, some not so good) that the coach refuses to play or treats like poop. Runblad is pointed out as a Stan failure and on the surface is seems that way. But I can't help but wonder if his signing (twice) is a payback for someone in Sweden, as they have signed a lot of players from there and must be getting some help. No matter, there is an obvious disconnect between the front office and the bench. And until you fix that the rest won't matter. But God forbid, as another poster said, the Hawks management is starting to resemble the Bears. Please no on that.
6628
Joined: 08.24.2009

Jun 12 @ 10:14 AM ET
The problem with both Murph and forsling is they are both limited by there speed. Forsling has good feet but is slow inline. I think both guys are 4-5 ceilings. Forsling has a good shot, and Murphy has strength but since both are a step slow I just do not see them top 3 guys on good teams.
- kmw4631




Love Murphy's effort, and maybe he has strength, but he gets knocked off balance almost every time he makes contact. He does not seem to be strong on his skates at the NHL level.
Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 10.31.2017

Jun 12 @ 10:20 AM ET

FYI - the Athletic has the Hawks taking Wahlstrom with their 8th and Rasmus Sandin with their 27th.

If the Hawks trade their 27th pick it better be for a top 4 D because there will be some damn good players available at that spot that could really help out in 2-3 years.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Jun 12 @ 10:21 AM ET
Wiz - maybe you addressed this already, but curious on your thoughts on why Boqvist has fallen throughout the year?

- Justin Lowe



As I answered before it is just the other forwards and defenders have closed the gap on Adam Boqvist and raised their projections as possible pro players.
Boqvist is very young in terms of birthday, so that counts as the others are "older."

This was sitting under my nose in the DraftSite profile, a video breakdown on Adam Boqvist vs Quinn Hughes.

go to the site and the Adam Boqvist profile and look at the entire video submitted by Steeve Lehoux

man, I wish I could articulate as well as he has on this homemade video and he is a French speaking guy as his first language.

This is worth watching!
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jun 12 @ 10:23 AM ET
I take it as his advanced numbers are more likely to go down, not up. I mean those are nice numbers earned in a yr that was his 3rd consecutive declining yr in standard stats. .............. I agree with Sage. Toews can help with a 60 point yr, shut down role and 18-20 PP points. If we look for him to put up numbers that justify 10+ mil per IMO all Hawk fans will be disappointed.

If they ever found a SOB who could win 50% at the dot Toews wouldn't have to take all the brutal leg burning minutes and might add more at the other end.

- Mr Ricochet

His advanced stats may go down, but 1) they've actually been going up the last couple of seasons and 2) typically production ends up regressing up to reflect advanced numbers, not the other way around.

I'm not one who thinks Toews needs to be putting up more those types of point totals a season and I think ultimately that is probably his cap unless he was with someone like Kane all year but that would likely be mismanaging Kane. Toews' issue isn't his final production numbers imo but that it hasn't been consistent over a full season but that he gets most of his point during a late season push. That to me suggests that it's more personnel than player but it's impossible to say for sure. There is starting off slow (fine) and then not starting until the halfway mark (not fine).

Another faceoff guy would be nice though I'll take a 45-50% FO center as long as they know how to get the puck back after and then transition well. If the Hawks are looking for a checking center via trade, I'd point to Pageau as a solid choice.
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jun 12 @ 10:26 AM ET
Has to be close to 50 contracts. Do we see AHL & ECHL contract purge. Geez, you think Stan had an inkling he would not be keeping the current crew along for long?
- jhawk59

They're at 43 so they're fine in terms of contract space. If they're planning to make any big trades (like for Faulk), they'll shed a couple of contracts that way probably. They operate at close to 50 pretty much all the time.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Jun 12 @ 10:26 AM ET
FYI - the Athletic has the Hawks taking Wahlstrom with their 8th and Rasmus Sandin with their 27th.

If the Hawks trade their 27th pick it better be for a top 4 D because there will be some damn good players available at that spot that could really help out in 2-3 years.

- Justin Lowe



I am telling you, if you can you STAY in #27... too many good players, b/c of warts (Ryan Merkley) or being Russians that may not make the trip until MUCH later, and long term defensive prospects, and centres who don't right now look like solid guarantee pro second line locks but down the road are more than 3rd line pros.

If you want a nice project as dee, he is there.
You want higher risk maybe super reward take Merkley.

Take a forward if you got a dee man at #8


BlazinMike
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 05.08.2013

Jun 12 @ 10:29 AM ET
The problem with both Murph and forsling is they are both limited by there speed. Forsling has good feet but is slow inline. I think both guys are 4-5 ceilings. Forsling has a good shot, and Murphy has strength but since both are a step slow I just do not see them top 3 guys on good teams.
- kmw4631


I'd be alright if they became legit top 4 guys. Look what Vegas was able to do with a bunch of top 4 type guys.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Jun 12 @ 10:30 AM ET
It is difficult to believe

Zadina, Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes, Wahstrom or Jesperi Kotkaniemi are there when the hawks select, but...

What if the run on defenders goes FIVE that means two of the above ARE available?
6628
Joined: 08.24.2009

Jun 12 @ 10:38 AM ET
Either I think would be good and would prefer that to having play here before he’s ready.

There is a good article in the Athletic on Forsling today and I’m hoping this is the year he comes up and gives them no reason to send him back to RFD.

- HawkintheD




I hope they're right about Forsling. He can really bring it from the point.
DarthKane
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: 5.13.4.9
Joined: 02.23.2012

Jun 12 @ 10:39 AM ET
It wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

I think the most ideal though would be to have him playing and learning under Colliton, Brookbank and King.

When I heard that Jokiharju was potentially able to play in the AHL, I envisioned the same path as Timothy Liljegren (Leafs prospect) took last year playing for the Marlies as an 18 year old.

You know what that means though if Jokiharju heads to Rockford... they will now have 477 defencemen in the NHL/AHL/ECHL next year.

- Justin Lowe


Jokiharju is also listed on the CPHL roster...he must have taken Kane's spot.
Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 10.31.2017

Jun 12 @ 10:42 AM ET
I am telling you, if you can you STAY in #27... too many good players, b/c of warts (Ryan Merkley) or being Russians that may not make the trip until MUCH later, and long term defensive prospects, and centres who don't right now look like solid guarantee pro second line locks but down the road are more than 3rd line pros.

If you want a nice project as dee, he is there.
You want higher risk maybe super reward take Merkley.

Take a forward if you got a dee man at #8

- wiz1901


I'm on board with that strategy, Wiz!

Also, would be down for them taking Merkley @ 27th.
Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 10.31.2017

Jun 12 @ 10:43 AM ET
Jokiharju is also listed on the CPHL roster...he must have taken Kane's spot.
- DarthKane


He was there before.

Not sure what the deal with Kane is? Maybe another commitment at that time came up.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jun 12 @ 10:48 AM ET
RE Jokiharju signing... there is still confusion on whether he can be assigned to Rockford. I believe because he was on loan to the Portland Winterhawks before he was drafted, that makes him eligible for the AHL.

It appears he's tapped out his challenge in the WHL and I've heard it's either AHL (if possible) or potentially overseas to play in Europe for a year so he can get experience vs. men.

- Justin Lowe


Justin, I find it hard to believe that Major Junior wouldn't close any and all loop holes of the exclusive Indentured Servitude Rule they have with the NHL. That rule simply states that if you are drafted OUT of Major Junior you are indentured to that league until you are out of Major Junior eligibility UNLESS you make an NHL roster.

Like Dcat, and many others before, kids who can't make an NHL roster at 19 yrs old but are too good for any more development in Jrs are stuck there for another yr or two.

Lets see if there is indeed a loophole for "loaned" players but I doubt it.
kwolf68
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Mt. Lebanon, PA
Joined: 12.18.2010

Jun 12 @ 10:57 AM ET
I am telling you, if you can you STAY in #27... too many good players, b/c of warts (Ryan Merkley) or being Russians that may not make the trip until MUCH later, and long term defensive prospects, and centres who don't right now look like solid guarantee pro second line locks but down the road are more than 3rd line pros.

If you want a nice project as dee, he is there.
You want higher risk maybe super reward take Merkley.

Take a forward if you got a dee man at #8

- wiz1901



Wiz. Yea great call on Merkley. But will he EVER become a legit defensive defender? No question he could be a lethal power play guy. He's small also. That said, at 27 no question I take this kid. He could flame out totally and never amount to anything, be another Marc Andre bergeron or be a power play/offensive STAR. Remember, guys like Erik Karlsson came into the league with questions about how he plays in his own zone and he has worked to be decent enough there.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jun 12 @ 11:00 AM ET
I claim no exclusivity here re: his lack of high-end skill and what a danger picking him becomes. It is a concern raised by many hockey people.
- Z3Hawk


If it was simply drafting the highest skilled player Merkley would go 2nd. As I copied and pasted it was said tons and tons and tons of effort is made to show what a player CAN'T do not so much what he can. Honestly I'm ok with that but you can pick at any player and find plenty of flaws, Tkachuk and anyone else. ..... I'll take my chances with a Marchand grit/compete in a 6ft 3in 225lb body while acknowledging the concerns. If I had to bet a dollar though the Hawks would take Wahlstrom if both were on the board.


resqmed99
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.18.2007

Jun 12 @ 11:09 AM ET
http://www.hockeybuzz.com...-in-free-agency/187/93330

Anyone else feeling that overwhelming sense that Stan will make this happen?
SteveRain
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Connor Murphy Sucks, IL
Joined: 05.07.2010

Jun 12 @ 11:11 AM ET
So you think if the Blackhawks offered Buffalo Toews for O’Reilly straight up they’d jump on it in a heartbeat?
- walleyeb1



Yep. I do.
SteveRain
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Connor Murphy Sucks, IL
Joined: 05.07.2010

Jun 12 @ 11:12 AM ET
He is an idiot i am not sure why I waste my time with him.
- BigDog912


Thanks buddy....Means a lot coming from a troll..

Toews has been bad, but to think he's untradeable is hilarious.
SteveRain
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Connor Murphy Sucks, IL
Joined: 05.07.2010

Jun 12 @ 11:15 AM ET
They will have a lot of money to play with and they have some solid NHL assets that they can move, especially with all those fast lil forwards that have shown some level or promise in the NHL.

Murphy was one of their better defenders and has size and mobility. Worst case scenario he's a guy and they don't even have a plethora of those right now.

Dump Hossa's deal and they have 17 or 18 million to play with. Come off AA and there's 22 with which they can do all kinds of crazy things.

Kills cap flexibility down the line (until there is a lockout) but if they are going to win while Keith still has legs and Seabrook is moderately useful then they need to do it the next two or maybe three years cause the party is over any way you cut it then.

I think they need to go big now.

- fattybeef


I don't disagree but the problem is if you deal AA, you damn better be sure you are acquiring an equal C (younger in age) or better one to replace him. You aren't going to win a championship with 8 as your #2 center.

IF 91 gets to 7/1, Bowman and McDonough better roll out the dog and pony show and not let him sign elsewhere. This is a marque player who immediately slots guys in the correct spot.


I am with you 100% they need to go big now while their aging core (3 of 4) and concussed goalie still can possibly make a run.
jhawk59
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.15.2013

Jun 12 @ 11:23 AM ET
It is difficult to believe

Zadina, Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes, Wahstrom or Jesperi Kotkaniemi are there when the hawks select, but...

What if the run on defenders goes FIVE that means two of the above ARE available?

- wiz1901


Hard to believe Zadina drops to us. Someone will grab Tkachuk because he is too hard to pass.... is nasty and enough ability. His sign -ability and NHL role immediately, though, may force someone to pass whom really wanted tisnag him.

Wahlstrom sounds farther away from NHL than a team on rebuild wants to wait for....don't kid yourself, next season is a save face, save our jobs for Stan and Joel then the next wave of kids had a year to prepare. If Wahlstrom is not ready, how much is Kotkaniemi similar style to Edjsell?

Really am hoping we can draft a dman. Would even trade up one or two spots although reportedly that will be quite difficult to accomplish

I like what you say about grabbing good talent at #27. Watch Stan not grab a dman early enough beforr draft, forcing a trade if #27 to land an NHL dman. I am pissed at Stan if he falls into that. For any descentnt or good moves he makes, he blows another better trade he might have been able to make.

I will say this, though: if trade #27 ifo not see anyone I like more than Fault. Is he a right shot.

The elite talent is maybe #1-6 so trade up. If possible, try go for it becsuse you never know...mihht be surprised if someone tries to get something of value from us when they figure to draft their guy in our #8 slot.

And at #27 before Merkely got talked up, that is a solid choice. As you suggest, I really believe at least a couple teams will go early after Merkely.

Another point. A few posts back 6628 and someone else whom is a knowledgeable blogger, had a dialogue about Forsling and Murphy. Their strength, weakness, ceiling.

Oh to be able to draft a 5 full tool type. All of our prospects have upside, some very good ability in certain areas but always a weakness which they hope can be minimal after a few years as pros. Truth is they will always have weaknesses, most of them, just might not be as bad once they get experience.

But just as a point of reference or to appreciate what you get in Dahlin, sorry Wiz for baseball reference but a classic example is Bryce Harper the big stud star only battinh .233 quite recently.

Let's hope for no teasers like Jack Johnson.

Hey Congo Avalanche fan, what about Erik Jonhson.
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