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Just so strange to me that virtually everyone on here gives Keith a "no question" pass for a bad year+ because he has finally had someone other than Hammer by his side, yet Toews, Seabs, Kane, etc. don't get the same dispensation. Toews' performance, once put back with Kane, was entirely different.
Must be the money/value question and that alone. - pdx2ord
That’s true. Keith has great value/cap. Kane has gotten a pass too, because you can still see the dominance in his play. |
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jhawk59
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 02.15.2013
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That’s true. Keith has great value/cap. Kane has gotten a pass too, because you can still see the dominance in his play. - ObeseOprah
I don't think Keith is so great. I think he can be really good. He can step it up for a series or playoffs. He won't want to deliver those crushing checks all the time because it had a toll on him too. Keith makes too many bone head plays or bad decisions, some years are worse than others.
It is some other things he can do that really stand out. Beside his superb condition which allows for maximum TOI, taking chances, roving to create pressure on offense or defense. His abilty to skate with the fastest skaters. If you want to compare him to Lidstrom in terms of consistency in play, fewest mistakes...Keith looses. But he has served well as the leader of the defense, winning three Cups with him the crown jewel and everyone else on blueline fell into place/slot behind him. I just wish we would trot someone else out on PP. |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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Just so strange to me that virtually everyone on here gives Keith a "no question" pass for a bad year+ because he has finally had someone other than Hammer by his side, yet Toews, Seabs, Kane, etc. don't get the same dispensation. Toews' performance, once put back with Kane, was entirely different.
Must be the money/value question and that alone. - pdx2ord
No, it's the eye test that shows Toews as slow, with poor puck control, no jukes/dekes to beat defenders, and on top of all that his strength is diminished as well. The eye test also shows that #7 cannot keep up with the pace due to his diminished skating. Keith stayed step for step with McDavid and Mackinnon this year, 19+7 can't. |
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Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL Joined: 11.06.2015
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No, it's the eye test that shows Toews as slow, with poor puck control, no jukes/dekes to beat defenders, and on top of all that his strength is diminished as well. The eye test also shows that #7 cannot keep up with the pace due to his diminished skating. Keith stayed step for step with McDavid and Mackinnon this year, 19+7 can't. - EnzoD
I’m not really arguing your overall point on Keith, but you have to admit, if MacKinnon and McDavid had an extra 10’feet on those rushes they both get by Keith pretty cleanly. |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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I’m not really arguing your overall point on Keith, but you have to admit, if MacKinnon and McDavid had an extra 10’feet on those rushes they both get by Keith pretty cleanly. - Chunk
All three had the worst seasons in the last decade, there's no debate. However, I can't bring myself to rag on Keith too much as he is literally the only legit Top 4 Dman on the entire roster this year. Bowman must go! |
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Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL Joined: 11.06.2015
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All three had the worst seasons in the last decade, there's no debate. However, I can't bring myself to rag on Keith too much as he is literally the only legit Top 4 Dman on the entire roster this year. Bowman must go! - EnzoD
Me neither. I still like Keith’s overall game (save for the infuriating shots into shinpads). One thing I’ve noticed this year, on odd man rushes, Seabrook is really good at quickly eliminating one option (leaving the goalie with a clear decision) where Keith seems to try and be in position to try and eliminate both options which causes a bit of confusion.
I’ve got nothing on Toews. I just hope that he can get back to being able to handle the puck. |
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riozzo
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Cornwallis Island Joined: 06.17.2014
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I’m not really arguing your overall point on Keith, but you have to admit, if MacKinnon and McDavid had an extra 10’feet on those rushes they both get by Keith pretty cleanly. - Chunk
And if the NFL field was a few feet shorter we'd have a couple of different winners... |
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Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL Joined: 11.06.2015
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And if the NFL field was a few feet shorter we'd have a couple of different winners... - riozzo
Ha! I was thinking that as I sent it. I’ve just been a contrarian fan since the end of January. |
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jhawk59
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 02.15.2013
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No, it's the eye test that shows Toews as slow, with poor puck control, no jukes/dekes to beat defenders, and on top of all that his strength is diminished as well. The eye test also shows that #7 cannot keep up with the pace due to his diminished skating. Keith stayed step for step with McDavid and Mackinnon this year, 19+7 can't. - EnzoD
Let's just call it like it is. Let's not make excuses or have an asterik next to their name, as in in not alwsys or getting a break on negative review because of...
Which is what you did in your assessment. Now let's go farther. Because we have to. Because the team will get better. It will take a couple years or more to ride above .500. You can see some pieces that should be on the team then..
And some players their performance will ultimately lead to their end, at least end time here.
As the team improves and more younger guys become the building block, the older guys playing less than expected for their paygrade become a problem. You have to reward improving young guys. If a veteran is inconsistrnt and something much less than he used to be, you cannot just expect him to take a pay cut.
You also do not exactly want him here if his performance capacity slips farther. It would be nice if they were shamed into retirement. They will just play less TOI and you are faced with telling them eventually to retire or accept a trade.
What had happened with Toews and Seabrook is likely irreparable. I do not think Seabrook getting into better shape is going to help much.. He has slowed down. Toews still good but has issues.....so we fairly, objectivrly can merely say let's see how good they are next year
Toews has issues with his body and even if he tries to play his old way, he is not going to get the same result.
Both those players have one more year to squeeze in here. Afterwards you are going to have to cut ties given their payrate.
Keith gets a pass because there is no one else nearly as good as the flawed player he has become. And we expect that he could play better as the team improves. Not what will happen with Toews and Seabrook. Their boddy just cannot take the abuse it used to receive, or the grind over so many years has caused a problem in that their body cannot handle the grind the same as it used to
You might be in an uncomfortable position after the collective bargaining agreement is settled. Time for new heroes..Believe it! |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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Let's just call it like it is. Let's not make excuses or have an asterik next to their name, as in in not alwsys or getting a break on negative review because of...
Which is what you did in your assessment. Now let's go farther. Because we have to. Because the team will get better. It will take a couple years or more to ride above .500. You can see some pieces that should be on the team then..
And some players their performance will ultimately lead to their end, at least end time here.
As the team improves and more younger guys become the building block, the older guys playing less than expected for their paygrade become a problem. You have to reward improving young guys. If a veteran is inconsistrnt and something much less than he used to be, you cannot just expect him to take a pay cut.
You also do not exactly want him here if his performance capacity slips farther. It would be nice if they were shamed into retirement. They will just play lesd TOI and you are faced with telling them eventually to retire or accept a trade.
What had happened with Toews and Seabrook is likely irreparable. I do not think Seabrook getting into better shape is going to help much.. He has slowed down.
Toews has issues with his body and even if he tries to play his old wsy, he is not going yo get the same result.
Both those players have one more year to squeeze in here. Afterwards you are going to have to cut ties given their payrate.
Keith gets a pass because there is no one else nearly as good as the flawed player he has become. And we expect that he could play better as the team improves. Not what will happen with Toews and Seabrook. Their boddy just cannot take the abuse it used to receive, or the grind over so many years has caused a problem in that their body cannot handle the grind the same as it used to
You might be in an uncomfortable position after the collective bargaining agreement is settled. Time for new heroes..Believe it! - jhawk59
Like I said, if Stan Bowman actually believes that these worn down Vets are going to have some kind of rejuvenation/rebirth to their former glory days next year and carry this rag-tag group to the promised land, then he's far more clueless than I previously thought. To just be a bubble playoff team again, they need a game changing Top 6 forward and Top Pair Dman. Adding those higher end players slots everyone down the lineup in a more appropriate role (AHL included). |
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-Doh-
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Location: VA Joined: 10.05.2015
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Just so strange to me that virtually everyone on here gives Keith a "no question" pass for a bad year+ because he has finally had someone other than Hammer by his side, yet Toews, Seabs, Kane, etc. don't get the same dispensation. Toews' performance, once put back with Kane, was entirely different.
Must be the money/value question and that alone. - pdx2ord
The money/value question is huge on this board.
But from a true performance level give Toews and Saad a sniper on the RW and see a top performing line even at Toews "advanced" age. (and complaints on this board decrease).
Give Anisimov and Kane a sniper on the LW (like Panarin or a younger Sharp) and see a top performing line.
Give Keith a true top pairing RD and a healthy Crow and see his performance improve (even at his "advanced" age).
Give Seabs a true 2nd pairing LD and a healthy Crow and see his performance improve (even with his lack of speed - which he has never had).
Different topic. We could do worse than Sharp as LW on a 3rd line. Sharp, Schmaltz, with Debrincat is not a bad 3rd line. Two guys that like to shoot with Schmaltz a guy that likes to pass up a shot.
Wingels, Ejdsell/Kampf, Hayden 4th line would be ok too.
Duclair is still a mystery to me. I am ready to give Jurco a train ticket out of town. |
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jhawk59
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 02.15.2013
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Like I said, if Stan Bowman actually believes that these worn down Vets are going to have some kind of rejuvenation/rebirth to their former glory days next year and carry this rag-tag group to the promised land, then he's far more clueless than I previously thought. To just be a bubble playoff team again, they need a game changing Top 6 forward and Top Pair Dman. Adding those higher end players slots everyone down the lineup in a more appropriate role (AHL included). - EnzoD
That's the shape of things to come. |
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jhawk59
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Joined: 02.15.2013
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Like I said, if Stan Bowman actually believes that these worn down Vets are going to have some kind of rejuvenation/rebirth to their former glory days next year and carry this rag-tag group to the promised land, then he's far more clueless than I previously thought. To just be a bubble playoff team again, they need a game changing Top 6 forward and Top Pair Dman. Adding those higher end players slots everyone down the lineup in a more appropriate role (AHL included). - EnzoD
That's the shape of things to come.
And when Edjsell is here to stay, then you can move AA. |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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That's the shape of things to come. - jhawk59
Kempny lost in the neutral zone on the go-ahead goal for NYR. Brady Skej is the type of physical Dman you'd love on the Hawks. Unlike Murphy, Skej is an excellent skater. Lars Eller, who has become an effective 200ft middle six center for WSH, ties it with 1min left. |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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http://www.chicagotribune...-core-20180328-story.html
AMEN Joe Knowles.....
"General manager Stan Bowman’s plan for this year’s team was heavy on hope and heavily reliant on his core of stars. With so much of the salary cap devoted to veteran players — Toews, Kane, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook and Corey Crawford — the Hawks would rely on them to be their best selves while filling the rest of the roster with inexpensive youngsters and role players.
It didn’t work. Expecting it to work next year, when all of those players will be a year older, seems more like a prayer than a plan."
If this is the plan that Stan Bowman has in place, he should be fired next Sunday. |
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totem
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Seattle, WA Joined: 06.14.2017
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Interesting point on Henri Jokiharju: He has 71 points in 63 games in the WHL this year.
That's 1.126 points per game.
The conversion (per Volman) for WHL to NHL points is 0.29. Meaning for every 1 point per game you score in the WHL you'll score 0.29 points per game in the NHL.
I did the math and it looks like Henri would have 26.7 points in a full 82 game season in the NHL.
27 points isn't bad for a rookie season. One thing I know about defensemen, their point production is heavily correlated to their Power Play time. No PP time, no points pretty much. Check out 'Hockey Abstract', a great book, for more charts and analysis. Don't believe me? Look up Alex Pietrangelo before and after Kevin Shattenkirk was traded.
So if Henri were to get a solid amount of PP time next year or in two years, he's likely to be around 35-40 points. If he doesn't, probably hovering around 15-20.
Something to look forward to, because if the Hawks don't get a lottery pick we might not see the kid next season. - ObeseOprah
Had a chance to see Jokiharju once here in Seattle earlier in the year. I'm no scout (never played or even learned to skate, just been a Blackhawks fan since the late 60s), but here is what I thought:
Offense: really good - has a good shot and can lift the puck easily and hit the top corners. Scored 2 or 3 this game (Portland won 10-5). First one he skated right into the slot and hit the top left corner of the net. Another he shot, tracked the rebound through traffic and scored along the ice. Very good for his age and think he could even convert to forward if he doesn't work out on D.
Defense: Very good with the stick but not physical in the game I saw. There were several instances where he pinched or drifted forward in the offensive zone and Seattle guys got behind him for breakaways. This actually led to 2 or 3 Seattle goals. Could be this is just the way it is in the WHL as guys maybe are looking for points over defense.
JMO (no expert as I said before) but think he needs another year in a lower league before NHL. Have read that maybe he cannot got to Rockford due to CHL rules (?) If so, maybe a top Euro league for next year would be good.
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matt_ahrens
Season Ticket Holder Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: San Carlos, CA Joined: 06.30.2014
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http://www.chicagotribune...-core-20180328-story.html
AMEN Joe Knowles.....
"General manager Stan Bowman’s plan for this year’s team was heavy on hope and heavily reliant on his core of stars. With so much of the salary cap devoted to veteran players — Toews, Kane, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook and Corey Crawford — the Hawks would rely on them to be their best selves while filling the rest of the roster with inexpensive youngsters and role players.
It didn’t work. Expecting it to work next year, when all of those players will be a year older, seems more like a prayer than a plan."
If this is the plan that Stan Bowman has in place, he should be fired next Sunday. - EnzoD
Exactly.
The plan is either:
1) Keep the top 5 in place and hope they hold on a few more years until the younger guys like Schmaltz and DeBrincat and others hit their prime, or
2) Somehow add some NHL talent to round out the top-4 & top-6 & bottom six & backup goalie and get competitive again next season.
I don't blame Stan for not being explicit about the plan publicly right now. He needs to execute on whatever plan they've agreed upon internally. (I'm hoping for #2.) |
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EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Denver, CO Joined: 02.19.2014
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Exactly.
The plan is either:
1) Keep the top 5 in place and hope they hold on a few more years until the younger guys like Schmaltz and DeBrincat and others hit their prime, or
2) Somehow add some NHL talent to round out the top-4 & top-6 & bottom six & backup goalie and get competitive again next season.
I don't blame Stan for not being explicit about the plan publicly right now. He needs to execute on whatever plan they've agreed upon internally. (I'm hoping for #2.) - matt_ahrens
I want to believe he's using this as a public call-out to the Vets, but after seeing the defense group he assembled this year...my faith in him is gone. Status quo next year, especially on defense, would have to be considered a throw away season aka tank for another lottery pick. |
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vandymeer23
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IA Joined: 10.11.2014
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Rarely does even sensible trades fans construct occur.
I hear and feel the pain, wanting to see the team add toughness and skill from a draft choice. And from a trade
For curiosity sake a trade might be how you could move up and it may be only two spots. It will cost you, but a fair offer could be presented. Bowman probably holds dearest grabbing two prospects from first round choices, so i would really be surprised if he traded a first round choice. Which is heartbreaking if you wanted a forward at #4 or #5) and you anteed up your second first and a prospect (to swap the early first round picks how many teams could make this offer other than Vegas).
The second talented but tough enough forward comes via swapping one of our top forwards for their forward.
Additional toughness may be provided by Martinsen and possibly Samuelson. Samuelson's kid is reportedly givingBowman pause to consider. You would have a greater amount of physical presence throughout
a lineup.
Next: the defense - jhawk59
martinsen and Samuelson can be physical but are not tough. We need a guy willing to play physical and stand up for teammates on the back end and on the 4th line. We've been pushed around thoroughly the last few years even in this watered down league. |
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vandymeer23
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IA Joined: 10.11.2014
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Ejdsell was a -3 in his debut and everyone is acting like he's penciled in for next year. Pump the breaks he could be another Michael holmqvist toni samilinen |
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Tyler Cameron
Season Ticket Holder Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Toronto, ON Joined: 10.31.2017
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