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Forums :: Blog World :: Justin Lowe: What This Team Isn’t and What They Need To Be
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BlazinMike
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 05.08.2013

Mar 5 @ 11:48 AM ET
Not trolling, but is there any reason to not sell off Kane and rebuild at this point? Hawks had an amazing run, but Toews, Keith, and Seabrook are all out of their primes and you could still get a huge value for Kane. Hossa is done and who knows what is up with Crawford. Not sure what the prospect pool looks like, but it can't be too good considering the lack of high picks.
- cuethenoise


I wouldn't shoot it down. If you get a big time haul of picks and prospects, then i say go for it.
BINGO!
Carolina Hurricanes
Location: I'll always remember the last words my grandfather ever told me. He said, "A Truck!", SK
Joined: 09.21.2009

Mar 5 @ 11:49 AM ET
I agree you and have the following additional thoughts.
1) I do not think Rocky and McD will fire either Bowman or Q.
2) Fire Ulfie. Find a strong experienced assistant to coach the D. Someone who teaches physicality, blocking shots, taking the body, AND puck movement and joining the rush. I believe Ulfie's system is a 5 forward and no defense system.
3) Sign or trade for a top pairing right Dman to play with Keith. Slot the rest down. I would also sign Rutta. He should come at a fair price. New Dman, Keith, Seabs, Murphy, Forsling, Rutta.
4) Sign Sikura and hope that he is the real deal.
5) Hope that Ejdsell is the real deal.
6) Tank and get lucky in the lottery. Draft well.
7) Hope the young players on the roster get better and that some of the prospects turn out surprisingly good.

- -Doh-



It isn't.

When he was coaching in Charlotte what he was preaching was a system similar to to what Peters was doing in Raleigh. High pressure from the D with the wings responsible for covering for their respective D man when they pinch.

Center stays high on everything in the O zone and parks himself near his own net in the D zone to provide a real quick outlet for D engaged in board battles. Use the middle of the ice as much as possible.
BINGO!
Carolina Hurricanes
Location: I'll always remember the last words my grandfather ever told me. He said, "A Truck!", SK
Joined: 09.21.2009

Mar 5 @ 11:51 AM ET
That's exactly the kind of thinking that keeps teams in ruts and not being able to improve. If Gretzky could be traded, than so can Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, whoever...

That being said, I don't want to see Kane moved. He's one of the few dudes working every night and he's an elite talent. But, it makes you kind of wonder if a guy like Toews (for example) hasn't been moved for the exact reason you mentioned. I know he has a huge contract that complicates things, but sometimes I feel it's a marketing decision to keep certain guys around so they don't "upset the fan base." Which is really odd to me if that's the case.

- Hank3Henshaw


Nobody is taking Toews without the hawks retaining a whole bunch of Salary.


He's a nice player no doubt, but you can't spend ~$200k per point.
Rota's Rooter
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.23.2017

Mar 5 @ 11:52 AM ET
>>>Bowman wanted this team to be “tougher to play against” which, to me, meant a little more aggressiveness on the body and a lot more on the forecheck.<<<

i was going to point this out...but you took care of that and filled out the argument nicely....

this team has not been tough to play against since game 1 and that's not just a talent driven characteristic...

something is wrong "in the room"...kane looks and sounds as frustrated as I have ever seen him; i want to know what's bugging keith...his play and comments are getting very stale and 19 has explaining to do...

toews, kane, seabs, saad, keith = 40 mildo in mil carton pictures; that can't continue or this organization maybe looking at 10 years in exile...

must do something to relieve themselves of hossa's cap hit...

- bogiedoc

IMO this has a lot to do with it. Kane has been pretty up front about how disappointed he was with the Panarin trade and I think everyone can agree that they were dynamic together and a heckuva lotta fun to watch.

They bring in Saad (who I like) to help ignite Toews and there has been very little positive happening from that reunion. A missing Hossa was probably the engine that drove that line.

Probably some hurt feelings in that locker room about who is really mommy's favorite, disappointment in the departure of some positive role models in Hossa, Hjalmarsson, time/age/declining skill sets that won't let some players do what they used to do.

It's been a fun run but, it's going to take a while to get back to the top. Too many holes to fill and not enough ways to acquire them.
bogiedoc
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: VA
Joined: 09.27.2011

Mar 5 @ 11:52 AM ET
That's exactly the kind of thinking that keeps teams in ruts and not being able to improve. If Gretzky could be traded, than so can Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, whoever...

That being said, I don't want to see Kane moved. He's one of the few dudes working every night and he's an elite talent. But, it makes you kind of wonder if a guy like Toews (for example) hasn't been moved for the exact reason you mentioned. I know he has a huge contract that complicates things, but sometimes I feel it's a marketing decision to keep certain guys around so they don't "upset the fan base." Which is really odd to me if that's the case.

- Hank3Henshaw


i hear this all the time...

https://www.nhl.com/news/...-28-years-ago/c-281301452

gretsky ASKED to be traded...and very unique circumstances...

is it possible hawks would move kane...for sure...if he asked and if it some off the chart offer...and it would take a a unique situation and offer to move him and his contract...
Matt Ross
Joined: 03.15.2013

Mar 5 @ 11:54 AM ET
Nobody is taking Toews without the hawks retaining a whole bunch of Salary.


He's a nice player no doubt, but you can't spend ~$200k per point.

- BINGO!


Yep.

He obviously has ability, just not the guy he used to be and it's hard to justify that elite talent money every year.

Matt Ross
Joined: 03.15.2013

Mar 5 @ 11:55 AM ET
i hear this all the time...

https://www.nhl.com/news/...-28-years-ago/c-281301452

gretsky ASKED to be traded...and very unique circumstances...

is it possible hawks would move kane...for sure...if he asked and if it some off the chart offer...and it would take a a unique situation and offer to move him and his contract...

- bogiedoc


Did he ask for trades out of LA and STL?

Legit question.
cuethenoise
St Louis Blues
Location: MO
Joined: 01.22.2013

Mar 5 @ 11:58 AM ET
That's exactly the kind of thinking that keeps teams in ruts and not being able to improve. If Gretzky could be traded, than so can Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, whoever...

That being said, I don't want to see Kane moved. He's one of the few dudes working every night and he's an elite talent. But, it makes you kind of wonder if a guy like Toews (for example) hasn't been moved for the exact reason you mentioned. I know he has a huge contract that complicates things, but sometimes I feel it's a marketing decision to keep certain guys around so they don't "upset the fan base." Which is really odd to me if that's the case.

- Hank3Henshaw


Seems like you get it. Why keep an awesome player if the team around him is going to be mediocre at best? Fans want to see a team that wins games and if you get some decent prospects and picks for Toews and / or Kane at this point I'd do it. You'll miss the playoffs a couple more years and then start to win games again. Unless you can bribe someone to take Keith and Seabrook away to give you some breathing space cap wise. Those contracts make Alexander Steen's deal look good.
BINGO!
Carolina Hurricanes
Location: I'll always remember the last words my grandfather ever told me. He said, "A Truck!", SK
Joined: 09.21.2009

Mar 5 @ 11:59 AM ET
Yep.

He obviously has ability, just not the guy he used to be and it's hard to justify that elite talent money every year.

- Hank3Henshaw


Reminds me of E.Staal. The weight of the C and the contract and a steadily diminishing team is burning him out prematurely. Some really really hard miles on that guy.

Maybe someday he can find his way back to what he used to be like Eric seems to have done, but right now he's clearly not having fun.
cuethenoise
St Louis Blues
Location: MO
Joined: 01.22.2013

Mar 5 @ 11:59 AM ET
Did he ask for trades out of LA and STL?

Legit question.

- Hank3Henshaw


He wanted out of LA (he was a rental). His wife is from STL so he wanted to come here, but then Mike
Keenen pissed him off and he signed as a UFA to the Rangers.
powerenforcer
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Wheeling, IL
Joined: 09.24.2009

Mar 5 @ 12:02 PM ET
Nobody is taking Toews without the hawks retaining a whole bunch of Salary.


He's a nice player no doubt, but you can't spend ~$200k per point.

- BINGO!


Let's see if Bettman jumps in and forces Vegas to eat salary, just like he did for Pit. Bettman needs to go away, and fast, or this league will die!
riozzo
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Cornwallis Island
Joined: 06.17.2014

Mar 5 @ 12:03 PM ET
Reading some of the news today MTL placed 2 people on season ending IR.

Shouldn't the Blackhawks feed be overpopulated with:

Seabrook - Out 4-6 weeks Heart
Toews - Out 4-6 weeks Complications from Diet
Keith - Out 4-6 weeks Eye to Hand Coordination
Sharp - Out for the season - Wheels
Saad - Out 4-6 weeks Motor on M/T
Kane - Out for Season - for his protection
Jurco - Waived and sent to Indy
TrueGrit
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: FL
Joined: 07.19.2011

Mar 5 @ 12:04 PM ET
Toews dodging Marian Hossa calls and texts....Hossa wanting half of the 10mill salary...
chuckdahammer
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago, IL
Joined: 11.01.2016

Mar 5 @ 12:05 PM ET
Justin Lowe you are spot in in this article. They don't have the horses to play run and gun anymore - YES ! System needs adjustments. Sure you can say its Bowman's fault for not having the horses but salary cap prevents some of that. Good coaches use the talent they have and try to make the most out of them. Slower defensemen like Seabrook, should not be encouraged to join the rush. Just look at some of the older defensemen in the league that compare age wise to Keith and Seabrook. How do they do it ? Know your limitations ..... or the coach should know your limitations.

Also, costly turnovers ..... mental mistakes not age. In some cases, too young, maybe it is inexperience. They do need help on defense for sure, but Q needs to change some strategy too. Arguably the most consistent line for most of the year was the 4th line of Hayden-Wingles-Bouma ..... consistently did what was expected of them. They need more grit. Puck possession can be gained by MAKING A HIT. It's easier to do that if you don't have the skill.

Also, the Schmaltz-Debrinkat-Hinostroza line worried me because of lack of size but they proved me wrong. Could be future line that creates match up problems for other teams because of their speed and skill
RaleighHawk
Joined: 03.29.2016

Mar 5 @ 12:06 PM ET
Not knowing what trades will happen, projections for fall roster:

Forwards probable- Toews, Kane, Schmaltz, DCat, Saad, Vinny
Forwards maybe- Hayden, Sikura, Ejdsell, Highmore, Kampf, AA

D probable- Keith, Seabrook, Forsling
D Maybe- Oesterle, Ruuta, Murphy

Backup goalie- ??

Matt Ross
Joined: 03.15.2013

Mar 5 @ 12:06 PM ET
Seems like you get it. Why keep an awesome player if the team around him is going to be mediocre at best? Fans want to see a team that wins games and if you get some decent prospects and picks for Toews and / or Kane at this point I'd do it. You'll miss the playoffs a couple more years and then start to win games again. Unless you can bribe someone to take Keith and Seabrook away to give you some breathing space cap wise. Those contracts make Alexander Steen's deal look good.
- cuethenoise


Haha. It's an interesting thing to think about...I mean, the Hawks were in the basement when they drafted Toews and Kane. They literally made them the face of the franchise, built around them and became a multi-championship team; which revitalized hockey in Chicago and put it back on the map.

So, you now have a lot of people who may have jumped on in those years and they see Toews as Chicago hockey--like he's THE guy, you know? That's all marketing and past performance. Some folks I talk to at work are very casual fans and will say you can't trade Toews, but in the same convo say they haven't watched a game in months. You know what I mean? It's like a large percentage of the fan base are newer to the game/team and have adhered themselves to Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook. I think a lot of those people don't understand all factors that go into hockey nerds like us talking about moving these types of guys: declining play, inflated contract, etc., etc.

It's more surface-level for a number of people.
walleyeb1
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Petersburg, IL
Joined: 09.25.2014

Mar 5 @ 12:07 PM ET
That was in 2010... 8 years is a long time in the hockey world. Toews is only 29 but it seems like he's burning out as the years go along.

Fighting Kesler was just weird. He's clearly frustrated.

- BINGO!



Really makes you wonder what’s going on in his head!!!
BINGO!
Carolina Hurricanes
Location: I'll always remember the last words my grandfather ever told me. He said, "A Truck!", SK
Joined: 09.21.2009

Mar 5 @ 12:09 PM ET
Let's see if Bettman jumps in and forces Vegas to eat salary, just like he did for Pit. Bettman needs to go away, and fast, or this league will die!
- powerenforcer


What the hell are you talking about?

Why would Bettman force Vegas to eat salary?

Also the value of the league has increased almost tenfold in the last 20 years, so I doubt it's in danger of dying, especially considering all of that growth has occurred under Bettman.
bogiedoc
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: VA
Joined: 09.27.2011

Mar 5 @ 12:09 PM ET
Did he ask for trades out of LA and STL?

Legit question.

- Hank3Henshaw


as far as I know...no...

he was traded to kings at the top of his unreal production of 200 pts per year @ at age 28; he went to the blues and later the rangers at age 35 near the end of his great career with his production down by 60-70%...
Matt Ross
Joined: 03.15.2013

Mar 5 @ 12:09 PM ET
He wanted out of LA (he was a rental). His wife is from STL so he wanted to come here, but then Mike
Keenen pissed him off and he signed as a UFA to the Rangers.

- cuethenoise


I thought he and Hull just didn't work.

To the other guy's point...I never remember reading or hearing Gretz wanted a trade from EDM. The Oiler GM was already building the trade before Wayne knew.
Matt Ross
Joined: 03.15.2013

Mar 5 @ 12:11 PM ET
as far as I know...no...

he was traded to kings at the top of his unreal production of 200 pts per year @ at age 28; he went to the blues and later the rangers at age 35 near the end of his great career with his production down by 60-70%...

- bogiedoc


Right.

But, I never read or heard anything that said he asked for a trade out of EDM. That team was stacked and could have won more. Why would he want out?

I was always under the impression the GM started moving guys like Coffey, etc., prior to getting a deal in place to move Gretz--which was a complete surprise to Wayne.
cuethenoise
St Louis Blues
Location: MO
Joined: 01.22.2013

Mar 5 @ 12:16 PM ET
Haha. It's an interesting thing to think about...I mean, the Hawks were in the basement when they drafted Toews and Kane. They literally made them the face of the franchise, built around them and became a multi-championship team; which revitalized hockey in Chicago and put it back on the map.

So, you now have a lot of people who may have jumped on in those years and they see Toews as Chicago hockey--like he's THE guy, you know? That's all marketing and past performance. Some folks I talk to at work are very casual fans and will say you can't trade Toews, but in the same convo say they haven't watched a game in months. You know what I mean? It's like a large percentage of the fan base are newer to the game/team and have adhered themselves to Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook. I think a lot of those people don't understand all factors that go into hockey nerds like us talking about moving these types of guys: declining play, inflated contract, etc., etc.

It's more surface-level for a number of people.

- Hank3Henshaw


I get it, we have tons of casual fans in STL. I still remember all the whining and outrage when we traded Brendan Shanahan for Chris Pronger. I mean they actually booed Pronger back in the day. Little did they know how great he'd be. They just see their favorite player go and are pissed.

Heck we still got that this year for trading freaking Ryan Reaves for a first round pick (Pit got ripped off on that one). Salary cap makes it hard for the average fan to understand trades for sure.
BobP.
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 12.29.2010

Mar 5 @ 12:16 PM ET
If any of Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabs, or Crawford were to suddenly retire; what would be the ramifications cap wise if any?

In Crawfords case, what if he's not able to return(God forbid)? I mean, does anyone really know for sure that he will be back next year? Would he be on career ending LTIR(i sincerely hope not), and how does that come into play? Thanks.
powerenforcer
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Wheeling, IL
Joined: 09.24.2009

Mar 5 @ 12:16 PM ET
What the hell are you talking about?

Why would Bettman force Vegas to eat salary?

Also the value of the league has increased almost tenfold in the last 20 years, so I doubt it's in danger of dying, especially considering all of that growth has occurred under Bettman.

- BINGO!


Obviously you were not watching the TDL, were you? League nixes a trade, then magically Vegas gets involved in the trade, and pick up Reeves also. Perception is reality my friend.
TexasHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 01.27.2017

Mar 5 @ 12:17 PM ET
Not trolling, but is there any reason to not sell off Kane and rebuild at this point? Hawks had an amazing run, but Toews, Keith, and Seabrook are all out of their primes and you could still get a huge value for Kane. Hossa is done and who knows what is up with Crawford. Not sure what the prospect pool looks like, but it can't be too good considering the lack of high picks.
- cuethenoise


There are still some on this board, and on Madison Ave., that think this season is an aberration. I tend not to sit in that camp. Even last season, when the Hawks led the Western Conference, there were trends that made me uncomfortable. We were a one-line team, without defensive depth, and Toews was carrying two bottom-six players on his wings. This season, we may have lost our elite goalie to a career-ending injury.

Assuming Chicago lands a top-five pick in the upcoming draft, that selection can only remedy one of our problems. This team does not seem to have the horses as presently constructed.

If you are a Cardinals fan, then you have seen that strategy work over and over again. Some on this board have suggested similar thoughts, but the main difficulty has been timing. Choosing when to undergo a nasty rebuild is tough, and it may require a regime change at the top.
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